Borstal for 4 year olds?

[mommycat]

I hope that makes you laugh.

But seriously, out 4 year old is out of control. I threatened her with children's homes, and borstal, saying she will only get grey mush to eat and not get any toys, but it just won't sink in. I even pretended to call social services to come and take her away and she just didn't pay any attention.

She won't listen, won't wear winter clothes, won't answer us and has just pooped her pants at nursery, and runs the risk of being thrown out, as it is a state nursery where being potty trained is required. (They said she was "sick" but in fact she pooped herself because she was too lazy to go to the toilet!)

What do you do to make your kids listen? To make them do what you say? And to get them to wear winter clothes in winter? We have screaming rows to get her out of the house. I explain til I am blue in the face that social services really will take her away if they see her outside in the middle of winter with no tights and short sleeves.

mommycat I am really, really pleased to hear that you have got some books/are taking advice on some parenting books from this thread. I think you do need educating on what is and isn't healthy parenting. And hopefully you will get lots of ideas for strategies other than you've listed here; if even putting shoes on is just "put your shoes on it's time to go" - there are numerous other ways of dealing with a child. you just can't treat them as you would adults. I would also suggest a book on child development so you can see what is to be expected at the stages of childhood. Many people expect far too much.

I am glad you are going to stop issuing those frankly cruel threats. And I agree with the poster who said that YOU receiving these threads HAS scarred you; you do sound highly insecure. I wouldn't for a second think my ds was going to be taken away if he went out improperly dressed, I would just assume other people would realise he's a kid and he's learning a lesson in an appropriate way!

I also agree you need to develop a sense of humour; don't be tempted to take life too seriously.

I am impressed you've been able to be calm and take comments though. So many people aren't able to do that.

Mommycat, I am so impressed by the way you havent backdown from all the negative criticism and are trying to take on board the advice given -

If you want my opinion your daughter is playing up because she gets attention that way -

My parenting motto is:

Ignore the bad, Praise the good.

Give her options; (ie red coat or blue coat...(and if you want the red coat choose another 'coat' that she hates ...maybe in her case trousers.

But her 'bad' behaviour is nothing but a reaction to your parenting style. Stop threating and shouting and start offering praise and if necessary rewards, I will be surprised if you dont quickly see a positive difference.

read stuff about positive parenting, then go back to it (it's easy to slip back into old routines)

good luck and dont give up

I haven't read all the thread but she sounds like a very bright inquisitive child, I would recommend 'How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk' by faber and mazlish

faber mazlish don't be scared off by their photographs, the book is brilliant, rather like learning a new language!

What about getting SICK by going out without a coat or appropriate clothing? Has that been proven not to be true or something? I must have missed that.

Mommycat - I have the cold/not cold problem with mine

They refuse to put their coats on too - after 100metres they realise its freezing and put their coats on

Social services are not going to question you and whisk your child away just because she hasnt got her coat on. They might question you however if they knew that you were doing such things as pretending to call social services to come and take her away - she is 4 - much too young to understand that.

I think to behave in that way towards your dd is emotional abuse - You need to talk to her with respect!

My latest trick re the coat problem is to say you either carry your lunch box or your coat - they often chose to carry their lunch, fair enough i say if they want to be cold

Its a bit like eating isn't it. The more fuss you make over something the more likely that it will become a BIG issue. So don't even mention coats (but bring it with you) when she puts it on eventually don't say I told you so, but pass no comment. Remove any possibility of her manipulating you over what she does or doesn't wear by ignoring the whole subject. When the issue is COMPLETELY deactivated you could then could go back to saying politely, lets put on our coats now its time to go. Or buy some really exciting vests with bows and characters on them. Or trendy leggings instead of tights.

mommycat on Sat 13-Dec-08 23:26:14
"What about getting SICK by going out without a coat or appropriate clothing? Has that been proven not to be true or something? I must have missed that."

I was told that this was an old wives' tale as long ago as the sixties and I don't think it's changed since.

Most illnesses are transmitted by viruses. You catch them by being in contact with people carrying the virus. The main reason for more colds being around in winter is that people tend to huddle up together indoors so they're passing bugs around in a way they don't do if they're outside most of the time.

If you weaken your condition by permanently cold or undernourished, that may make you more liable to get ill from a virus, but walking down the road without your coat probably isn't going to do it. Of course, you can get hypothermia if you're out long enough and it's cold enough, but again it would take a little more than a walk down the road in this climate. (I grew up in Sweden so was well briefed on the dangers of hypothermia and frostbite from early childhood).

I would still want my dd to put her coat on. I would not argue though: I'd just cheerfully stuff her arms in it, take her by the hand and say briskly "off we go then". It helps to show them that you are not terribly upset, you just happen to be the person in charge, and you don't need to get involved in silly arguments.

Failing that, they are likely to realise fairly soon that they'll be more comfortable with their coat on.

My mum used to threaten me with borstal. I was 4/5/6 had NO idea what it was. Didn't sound nice tho, scared the shit out of me.

Oh & when threatening to send her away, you may as well be saying 'we don't want you'.

Let her go out in the cold with no coat on. Seriously, WHY are you so worried about social services? They won't interfer just because she has no coat on!

Your post of Thu 11-Dec-08 09:56:26 makes her sound like a normal 4 yr old, imo!

Dd hates tights! I hate tights, they are uncomfortable! Put trousers on her!

Dd never wore tights in winter!

And it isn't a diff name for THIS! STILL haven't changed it back!

Hi, well I have NOT made any more such threats you will all be glad to hear.

A few have said that rather than telling DD, I should just do what I want her to do - gently do something for her.

For example, she won't stop playing to come and eat. First I say once or twice that it is time to stop playing and come to the table. Then, when she ignores me, instead of nagging and saying it 12 times, I will now gently remove the toys from her hand and then lead her to the table and sit her down. This does in fact work but it feels like I am treating her like a baby.

In fact last summer I visited a friend who did accuse me of treating DD, then 3 1/2, like a baby. He has 2 teenagers who have always been model children. What he has done so right still eludes me. He would be appalled to see me leading a 4 year old to the table as if she were two.

Some things everyone may agree are wrong but other things don't seem that clear.

I suppose some would say to just let her play and not bother enforcing any kind of mealtimes. Others will also say not to bother enforcing a bedtime, to just let her stay up as long as she wants. That way there would never be a battle. If she wants something from the shop, just buy it. Why say no if it will upset her?

(again to anyone not following this very long thread now, my DD will NOT wear trousers, she has not worn them since she was 2 1/2. its dresses and bare legs in summer, and then tights in winter)

I think my position re my own children would be 'if you behave like a baby then you get treated like a baby'. If you want to be treated like a big girl, behave like a big girl.

I would try to get back on track and treat them as their age as quickly as possible, but I still do want to enforce family rules.

And I would enforce meal times, bed times etc.

But I don't see why you worry so much that somebody criticised you last summer? He's not snooping around now, is he? All Mums get criticised; it's part of the job description. We have to learn to rise over it.

(can only get worse, dd is now coming up to her teens- so it won't just be other Mums finding fault )

How sad for you both. 4 was a good year for me and my DD (perhaps the best). We have shaky moments (whole months sometimes). She should be old enough to withdraw privaleges (no TV, because you wouldn't put your coat on this morning, etc - you do have to tell her that will be the consequence), or is she the kind that would respond to a sticker chart with a reward for good behaviour (maybe hold onto a Christmas present you can use). I agree with some of the others .... never issue a threat you will not carry out .... or they will never believe you.

if she won't stop playing to come and eat, I would sit by her for a few seconds, watch what she's doing, and say something about it eg "oh you're dressing that doll nicely" or whatever, then tell her "It's time to come to the table for lunch. You can bring one toy - are you going to choose this doll?"

DS brought a toy to the table for ages.

It's just about having lots of little strategies for looking at life from their eyes; and then you can usually find a compromise, or a way round it, without confrontation. It's not about NOT imposing routines/mealtime/bedtime, it's about having strategies to do it without locking horns all the time IMO.

My 5 yr old zones out when she is playing. I can call her several times, even shout but she just won't hear me!

So I have to go up to her, get her attention & tell her what I need her to do! Don't be worried about leading her to the table, etc. She will get the idea evantually.

Enforce what YOU believe in & what is important to you. Mealtimes & bedtimes are set in stone in my house. You will sit at the table at x oclock & you will be in bed at x oclock.

Oh & your friends teenage lads, how perfectly behaved are they? Not as much as they would like you to think, I bet! What we do in complany is very different from what we in our own homes! Either that or they have the fear of god in them...

And how about swapping the tights for leggings under her dresses in winter? Or will that be too much like trousers for her?

My 4 yr old ds is incredibly wilful. Friends with same aged children cannot believe what a handful he is most of the time. A real live wire, incredibly opinionated and rarely does what I ask him to do when I ask him to do it.

He regularly wants to play outside without a coat and I don't bother to force him. He sometimes comes back in and puts on his coat but sometimes he doesn't. He is old enough to know if he is cold or not.

He sometimes say he hates me, usually when he is being naughty. I keep calm and say that I don't like his behaviour. I would never ever say that I will have him taken away, no matter how awful his behaviour is (he saves his worst for me too - he's an angel at school). I can't imagine anything worse.

Isn't it supposed to be that your children behave badly with you because they know that they are secure and safe with you as their parent - ie you would never do anything to harm them or send them away? I can't imagine how your dd feels when you threaten to have her taken away. I'd think that threat would just perpetuate her bad behaviour. Imo 4 yr olds test boundaries all the time and it can get incredibly wearing particularly if, as in my position, you have no one to share the parenting with. Having said that my ds is confident, happy and knows that he is loved no matter what he does.

My 4 year old is incredibly wilful also, sometimes she drives me to distraction!

I can recommend 1-2-3 Magic - brilliant book and if you stick to it consistently it works.

Beats screeching like a banshee - which I have to confess to having done a few times