Borstal for 4 year olds?

[mommycat]

I hope that makes you laugh.

But seriously, out 4 year old is out of control. I threatened her with children's homes, and borstal, saying she will only get grey mush to eat and not get any toys, but it just won't sink in. I even pretended to call social services to come and take her away and she just didn't pay any attention.

She won't listen, won't wear winter clothes, won't answer us and has just pooped her pants at nursery, and runs the risk of being thrown out, as it is a state nursery where being potty trained is required. (They said she was "sick" but in fact she pooped herself because she was too lazy to go to the toilet!)

What do you do to make your kids listen? To make them do what you say? And to get them to wear winter clothes in winter? We have screaming rows to get her out of the house. I explain til I am blue in the face that social services really will take her away if they see her outside in the middle of winter with no tights and short sleeves.

Have you thought of going to parenting classes,mommycat? I went to some run through the school and they are very useful-it was great to talk it over with people going through the same thing. We had good fun with role play! There is no feelings of discrimination in it,in fact when I mentioned it to a teacher she said the noticeable thing was that we were all what she would call the good, supportive parents. It really helps you think about what you say, I can't say that I changed much, I do what suits my personality, but it helps avoid conflict.
You sound a mother that is trying to do the best for your DC,or you wouldn't be posting.
It must be hard if you are insecure and worried about social services.

I agree with Pheebe - if you can reduce your anxiety when your DD plays up (as any 4 your old does at times!), then you will find it much easier to stay calm.

One thing I think you need to take on board is that if your dd is being difficult or failing to do something, then it's not always going to be either about her being lazy or naughty or about your being a bad parent. Quite a lot of naughtiness comes naturally to 4-year-olds anyway. And naughtiness can seem a lot worse if you're stressed or worried.

One thing I meant to ask was- do you and dd have time to have fun together? I think that is one of the most essential aids to discipline. Not that you have to be fun all the time, but that you need to share good times too.

Another thought has occurred to me about the choices issue! Its worth remembering the long term goal here. Its (imho anyway) to good our kids towards being kind, considerate adults who can make good choices for themselves and peeps around them. This come with guidance and practice. I do think 4 is definitely old enough to be given choices, I actually think a toddler can as well but you have to choose the choices iyswim. Give them choice over something that doesn't really matter - the red or the pink top, orange or blackcurrant, yogurt or an apple. I think the mistake thats often made is to give too many options (which top do you want/what do you want to drink etc) rather than too many choices.

"Do most people suffer at the hands of their parents?"

In one way or another. Most people I know did anyway. Even simply by doing or saying the wrong things, or by being insecure and lacking confidence themselves, parents make their kids feel bad. My grandparents were awful. My parents made every attempt to improve on what they grew up with, and were much better; however, being damaged themselves, how could they be perfect parents?

Maybe it's just me and everyone I know - we just gravitated to each other because we had similar experiences. maybe the vast majority of people are totally happy, and have no problems, and never had any problems growing up. It's not what you read in the media though, either. Most people suffer in some way.

Re: the potty training, that is what they told me when we applied to nursery: children had to be potty trained.

That would not apply to SN kids though, of course.

mommycat I really do think you're being too hard on yourself. Of course there's no such thing as a perfect parent BUT I honestly do not believe that MOST people SUFFER because of their parents. SUFFERING comes (I think) from persistent willful neglect or cruelty. I simply do not believe that is the reality for most families.

I would not say that a child who is shouted at occassionally by a stressed mum is suffering. A child who is constantly being shouted at/neglected/abused and all the emotion they get from their parent/carer is negative - now that is suffering. I don't think you are being willfully neglectful or cruel to your daughter, you've recognised a problem are are trying to fix it - thats something a GOOD RESPONSIBLE parent would do.

We all make mistakes, life isn't perfect. Its the unconditional love and the trying to do better that makes us better parents and sets a positive example for our kids.

They may try the potty training line (my own local nursery has said the same) but they can't. It's not a question of if you have SNs you can be exempt from our rules, if you have a late trainer, that's a form of developmental delay which they can't discriminate against.

School will know they don't really ahve a leg to stand on so please do not worry on that score.

I don't think that the teachers should be forcing her to look at them.

I don't think they are physically forcing her but they will be getting down to her level and getting eye contact when they are talking to her-I think it is very important.

she is 4 let her go through her i won't stage and i won't stage she will be lovely when she's five. threats don't make any difference to a 4 yr old they cant even remember you said it unless of course you say it 20 times a day, give her some lea way she is only 4 once, they do seek attention and approval its part of learning. believe me if she goes outside without a coat now she will soon be asking to put it on now winters crept in....

"do you and dd have time to have fun together?" we sure do! it's called the weekend. We go out a lot and see friends (friends with kids her age mostly so it's fun for all), we are going to Panto this weekend, and we do stuff at home, too, though I have to admit because i work - or look for work- from home I see most "fun" taking place outside home. but we do laugh and have fun at home, too, and play with dolls and toys etc. (i guess i missed that question earlier?)

"I don't think they are physically forcing her but they will be getting down to her level and getting eye contact when they are talking to her-I think it is very important." - yes that is what they are doing.

I mean this can go on and on really. I wonder if she gets the not looking thing from DH because he has a very bad lazy eye so he never looks at people, he is very shy and self conscious about it, so he doesn't really look at people? only a guess.

p.s. we have had a bad week, not all weeks are like this. i have a bad habit of going to internet forums when i'm having bad week. i usually go to american ones as they feel more anonymous. but this time i had some issues to do with the UK nursery so i've turned up here...there are always lively discussions, anyway, on this website.

You say that your parents threatening you with a 'naughty kids home' did you no harm, but you know what, you sound really, really damaged. It's NOT that normal to be so afraid of 'society' to think that the social services are coming for your if your four year old chooses to wear a fairy costume instead of a coat etc. This is really excessive anxiety of your child being 'taken away' and I do wonder if it might be connected the threats to have you 'taken away' when you were very young and vulnerable. Nobody is going to take your daughter away. Chill. Not listening and not doing what you are told is normal for a child of her age. They aren't robots!
Re getting dressed, if it's freezing, 'do you want the pink tights or the purple ones? I think the pink ones go so nicely with your pink skirt? Ok you have to choose 1....2...3.... Ok, quick can you put them on before I put all these books away? Bet you can't!'
Great we have to go NOW. Shoes ON. Right time to go'
they can't chuck her out for pooing in pants. adn she only did it ONCE!! It's normal, normal, normal.

I would just not even talk about tights for the next few weeks. Maybe she'll just feel a bit chilly and tell you so, and then you might casually ask her if she would like to put her tights on (or not) no pressure. As for what's she wearing - as long as its clean who cares whether its fancy dress or short sleeves. She'll ask you for her coat when she gets cold ie: within 5 mins of walking outside. Then after a bit, she'll want to get her coat in order to get ready to go out. I've been through all this screaming and shouting over clothes and I really think I could have handled it completely differently. I was always wondering what others thought of me letting my child go out without a coat indeed. Who cares? They must have thought much worse when they heard me arguing with her on the doorstep, or her having a tantrum in the road because she didn't want to wear a particular outfit I'd forced her into. She'll do what her peers do, and soon want to wear what they are wearing ie: tights, trousers, coats.
As for accidents, my six year old boy has them at least once a term and no-one has ever told him or me off about them.
Looking and listening - try to keep conversations two way, so that she contributes and you are listening to her too.

You sound bloody barking mad!@mommy

Give the kid a break. She is 4 years old.

I disagree that making a child make eye contact is important. Many chn that refuse to make eye contact have a reason for this behaviour. My ds refused to make eye contact when he was that age - the teacher used to try to make him and even put it on his IEP. Paed said absolutely not to force him - apparently it can be harmful.

I don't think that you should force them but you should keep trying and not give up-you can't get through to someone who won't look at you.

Piscesmoon, yes, you can you know. Lots of people find it much harder to listen when they are also looking. I do, for a start.I tend to look down when I am concentrating on what someone is saying. There are fewer distractions. In other countries looking at people in the eye is considered very rude, and children get punished for it!

I know that you are right about other contries. However there is nothing more annoying than a DC who is ignoring you completely by deliberately blocking you out.
I know one who takes no notice at all, not only does he not look at you but he sings as well to block you out! He then carries on doing whatever he wants to do! He doesn't have any problem-he just likes his own way. (I agree that if he had a problem it would be different). In his case if you want to get him to do something important you have to get through his barrier by getting him to look at you. He is beginning to improve his behaviour and respond more readily to others.

Devoutsceptic's suggestion at 21: 35 sounds really good. Giving choice at this age is very much a case of tricking them into thinking they are choosing between the two important things, when in actual fact you are using a pseudo-choice to distract them from the real choice that you have already made (you are going to keep your legs covered).

Also, mrsgboring at 17:16: if she won't wear trousers that's a nice and harmless threat (you do of course have to be prepared to follow through and actually put the trousers on her).

Like sceptic, I am also wondering if perhaps the threats your parents made haven't left you a little insecure and vulnerable. I think it's a very good idea to follow the book's advice and give up on them. My parents always told me that whatever happened or whatever I did, they would always love me. I believed that. I still do. I'll believe it when they're dead. If you can give that to your daughter, then you'll be leaving her with an inner security that will stay with her long after you're gone.

The really good thing is you say your parents did a better job than your grandparents. And you obviously care enough to want to do a better job still. These things can be turned round.

My Granddad had a really insecure childhood with horrible parents from all accounts. He was a lovely Dad himself (though sadly, he died early); his son was a lovely Dad; his sons are lovely Dads, their sons are growing up into lovely young men. It must have taken a hard struggle on his part not to carry on the bad bits from his own childhood, but he managed it- and so many people have benefited from that.

Pisces, OK, singing is annoying. I don't do that
Getting down to your child's level and talking quietly directly to them does work better than random yelling.

Hi mc~ just picking up on you saying maybe theirverbal ability is more advanced thantheir emotional maturity.I think this is true and is a pitfall many of us fall into with a firstborn child.A child of 4 can appear to respond verbally on an adult level but has no life experience or cognitive ability or insight into what the consequences of certain actions are on our level.They are copying our behaviour and reacting to it as a way of learning.
Agree with cuppa about talking much less and thinking and meaning what you say.Keep it kind,friendly and assertive when you want her to do something.The reason she is not listening could be the way you communicate with her~ since you are talking way above her head she will switch off and that will become a habit.
Some suggestions if you are in uk are;
Homestart will support you in your role as a parent in a kind,non judgemental way until she is 5.They are non statutory and you can refer yourself.They are experienced parents and have also been trained by h/s.
Also family centres often have parenting courses .They give strategies for promoting good behaviour.
I was wondering does she comply with you over fun shared activities like if you are reading to her will she go and get another book for you? If so,build on this type of communication in other areas of conflict .
If one is not v. confident as a parent it could be you are not asking confidently enough at first and then you are losing your self control and shouting.Ask 1st time nicely 2nd time firmly then 3rd time say will be time out 4mins for 4 yrsif not done.Time out can just be telling her she is in time out then not speaking for 4 mins.The key thing to remember is you shouldn't be cross ~being cross isn't the way to get her to comply.Also don't do it over every little thing,just important things def not more than once a day.
I hope you are feeling ok its not easy being a parent without role models and sometimes we go off track .
Good luck!

I prefer humour and games whenever possible ('oh! Poor pink tights! They want to go to school on your legs! Please don't leave us behind, we love your legs..'). Then counting 1...2...3 has amazing results - I don't even need a sanction 99% of the time.

I find humour useful-they can't have a tantrum if they are laughing!

My dd recently developed a fear of her overhad bedroom light ( a chandelier type thing, very poncy I know) because it looked like a face to her. So I did a deep voice and said, 'Oh poor dd, I am so sorry I scared you. I don't mean to be scary. I really love you. I watch you when you sleep to protect you and take care of you. You are my favourite little girl. Please don't be scared.' And now we have a little chat with 'light' most evenings, and sometimes I hear her telling 'light' about her day! I say, never understimate the role of fantasy in the lives of small children!