Borstal for 4 year olds?

[mommycat]

I hope that makes you laugh.

But seriously, out 4 year old is out of control. I threatened her with children's homes, and borstal, saying she will only get grey mush to eat and not get any toys, but it just won't sink in. I even pretended to call social services to come and take her away and she just didn't pay any attention.

She won't listen, won't wear winter clothes, won't answer us and has just pooped her pants at nursery, and runs the risk of being thrown out, as it is a state nursery where being potty trained is required. (They said she was "sick" but in fact she pooped herself because she was too lazy to go to the toilet!)

What do you do to make your kids listen? To make them do what you say? And to get them to wear winter clothes in winter? We have screaming rows to get her out of the house. I explain til I am blue in the face that social services really will take her away if they see her outside in the middle of winter with no tights and short sleeves.

mommycat, my children are also very stroppy. Please dont talk to them like that though, it is too much for a 4 yr old. They really shouldnt be worrying about childrens homes.

In our house, the words "Because I Say So" come out fairly often. I find that my children will often do stuff when I repeat the request/order several times firmly.

They try the stroppiness, then get bored and put their coat on, or whatever.

I agree with the others, it is awful to say to a child that you are going to send them away, totally inappropriate and very cruel.

I recommend the book "How to talk so kids will listen" and suggest that you listen to the advice offered on here.

Oh and fwiw I let my nearly 4 year old DS1 walk home from playgroup without a coat a few weeks ago as he refused to put it on.
Has never been a problem since (it was pretty cold)...

(lots of answers, just reading them and responding..)

"If she is refusing to put on winter clothes - let her go out cold. " - i can't do that, if people see me with a child with no coat on they will assume i am a bad mother letting her out without a coat and then we will get in real trouble. it's bad enough she insists on wearing ridiculous fairy costumes; she can't ALSO not be dressed for the weather.

as for threats not being carried out i'm sure my parents did the same, whether it worked or not i don't know, but we never actually got sent to the "bad baby tower" (a dormitory where they told us naughty children get sent). i don't feel scarred by it.

someone else i saw yesterday says he has threatened his child with "jail", and that his parents threatened to put him out with the bins. so i am not that weird by saying that.

"Does she do as she is told at nursery? " in fact yes, when the teacher told her she had to wear long sleeves, she now wears them. before that she would only choose summer clothes and refused to wear long sleeves under her dresses. (btw I am going to apply for s school with uniforms next year)

"her mother keeps telling her she doesn't want her." i never said that. EVER. i said if she didn't behave she would get sent somewhere where she won't get toys, and all the things she enjoys, and that mummy and daddy would be very upset about it. I NEVER said i didn't want her. and of course i have no intention of sending her away.

in this day and age we are told not to spank children or physically discipline them in any way. so what is left? i don't want to spank her.

"Book 1-2-3 Magic " - thank you, that was the kind of advice I was looking for, some books to read.

btw she does wear her coat now, its more than she won't wear tights, that is the big thing. even indoors it is WINTER and she should wear tights. I don't believe in keeping the heating up so high you can walk around like it's summer (now you are going to accuse me of being cruel for having a cold flat, but this place is not cold), that is just irresponsible for the environment to have the heating on so high all the time.

"they put me in a care home because I was 'naughty'" - oh my god, that is awful. no i wasn't planning at all on doing that for real, i live in fear of losing my child, i think that is every parents fear.

"is it just your convenience or is there a genuine safety/social/emotional reason behind them" well for example waving a fork around, she had finished her dinner and was waving a fork around. Her dad told her to stop it and eventually we had to physically remove it from her hand.

things like cleaning, I ask her to pick up her own mess when she is finished with something, before moving on to something new. that is not unreasonable. they also do that at nursery.

by not listening i mean, "get your shoes on it's time to go" and she doesn't listen, she goes and gets a toy instead. and going to bed, i would be very surprised if we have the only 4 year old who gets out of bed 6 times before she'll go to sleep, or gets distracted by every little toy or object in her room. but it is still annoying.

"I'm sorry if this comes across as a very personal attack on you and your parenting style. I hope you can take this in supportive spirit its intended." - thank you. some of these posts were quite attacking but it's what i'd expect on this board.

"wear your tights, here are some warm trousers." nope she gave up trousers when she was 2 1/2 and has refused ever since.

btw, a bit of advice someone should have given us when DD was born: do not give toddlers ANY choices. I don't know when she started chosing her own clothes but quite a long time ago, and one other mum was appalled that we had given her a choice. i think it was about eating - we have had eating issues from the start, though her eating is better now than it ever was. (better to be battling about clothes than food i guess). but when she was 6 weeks old she rejected the breast and has never been keen on food. she does eat more now, though. but that is where choice came in - she wouldn't eat so i would offer something else, and something else and something else until she did (but usually didn't anyway, if she wasn't going to eat she wasn't going to). but i was told i should not have given so many choices just let her go hungry.

i do reward for good behaviour, anyway i know about that. it's more the not listening than actually DOING anything. it sounds petty now but in the evening when you are tired and you have been battling all day, that's when i wrote the initial post.

off to the library now.

thanks

Mummycat dd1 walks about in the middle of winter in fairy costumes and no coats. I have enough with battling her over putting on her uniform without worrying about weekend clothes and coats too. I always carry her coat, hat etc in dd2s change bag and she usually decides to put it on after 5 mins in the cold.

"If she is refusing to put on winter clothes - let her go out cold. " - i can't do that, if people see me with a child with no coat on they will assume i am a bad mother letting her out without a coat and then we will get in real trouble. it's bad enough she insists on wearing ridiculous fairy costumes; she can't ALSO not be dressed for the weather. - You won't get into trouble - why would you? She will learn that if she doesn't wear tights or a coat then she will be cold. Pick your battles.

She sounds like a typical 4 year old tbh.

good on you for trying to improve situation.

please drop the 'children's home' comment.

wrt getting dressed, try picking eg 2 different pairs of tights or 1 tights 1 trousers, and say she can choose A or B but she has to have 1 or the other on in eg 2 minutes.

You say you don't believe in smacking. I don't either. but threatening with homes (even if you yourself know you don't mean it), or endless chat and inaction are also damaging.

Get 1-2-3 Magic and give it a real go. Good luck

btw, if she does what she's told at nursery, it shows she can and will follow rules. At nursery they can't endlessly negotiate. Stop talking, stop treating her like mini adult, be firm, follow book and good luck

The one thing you didn't respond to, mommycat, was my suggestion of just calmly taking dd by the hand and walking off. Or just calmly putting her shoes on.

This way, a child will learn that it's what Mummy wants that actually happens. And that Mummy is far to big and strong to be thrown or worried by a little naughtiness.

If it was my child that was waving a fork, I would have asked her once to take it away, and then taken it from her.

But I would not have wasted lots of time arguing or telling her off or making idle threats. The one thing I wanted my dcs to learn at this age is that it's what Mummy says that goes. Threats that are unrealistic or don't get carried out just teaches them that Mums don't have a lot of power: the last message I would have wanted mine to walk away with.

If you think about what it's like for a teacher. They've got to keep a whole classroom of 4yos under control. Now which make the best teachers? The ones that scream and bang the table and threaten detention sixty times a day? Or the ones that hardly ever raise their voice, but just exude authority.

I find it's helped me to pretend to be a headteacher at times. I even found it helped to practise in front of the mirror from time to time.

If she is obeying at nursery, it suggests that their approach is working. And it is highly unlikely that they are shouting and threatening her with Borstal. And they are certainly not allowed to smack. So I'd see if I could take a leaf out of their book.

I think we have all said things we are not proud of to our children at some point, but really the children's home threats are not nice. My parents said things like that at times, and my cousin threatens her daughter with the child catcher from chitty chitty bang bang!!

The thing is, it doesn't work anyway imo. I knew my parents didn't mean it and it was just an empty threat, so it never got me to do what they wanted.

mommycat is she your first child? I had such high expectations with my dd1, getting into such flusters about (in retrospect) silly things and we had horrible shouty battles over her not listening to me. With ds1 and dd2 I think I am more realistic and although we have our bad times I definitely pick my battles more.

I'm not saying you have no behaviour issues to tackle, just that sometimes we get into downward spirals and end up on our kids' backs about everything.

And finally, my ds did the pooping in pants thing for ages - it's the worst thing ever but I don't think there's anything you can do about it apart from act like you're not bothered by it. Nothing worked with my ds - threats, rewards, nothing. He finally stopped because he decided to. I think that's the way it goes with strong minded children - your dd sounds like a determined little thing.

When I was little, I remember really struggling to pull my tights up and down.... does your DD have a problem with this and might this be the cause of the pooping in pants thing?

Just an idea.

Also, if she has eating problems- pooing in her pants could be caused by constipation.

The feeling I get is not that the OP is a troll or even a harsh or uncaring mother. If anything she comes across as rather helpless. Somebody who worries far too much about the normal obstinacy of young children. Somebody who feels very insecure about her position in society (worrying about whether her child will be taken away is not a main concern for most parents).

I wonder if there is a history here.

I may be missing something here but if she won't wear tights why don't you just put her in trousers rather than skirts?

A book I have found really helpful is "How to raise your spirited child" - can't remember who by.

It has some very illuminating sections on personality traits and coping techniques. It's really helped me because I used to find myself snapping a lot at my ds and I didn't want that to continue. It also explains consequences and how to use them effectively.

I think by now you have the message that threatening your child that you will have her taken away probably isn't a great idea.

Op, do you see anything wrong in saying that she will go to a 'naughty children's home?' Seriously? Tbh, you seem abit meh about it asthough it is a normal thing to say

I don't think she is a troll. Her parents brought her up with threats of what happens to naughty DCs and, as it didn't scar her, she sees nothing wrong with it.
I think it is a mistake to threaten a DC with anyone -as in 'the shop lady will tell you off'. You need your own boundries and consequences for if they don't comply.
I have some things as non negotiable and getting dressed is one of them. I would give a choice of 2 things, if she doesn't like tights, trousers and if she doesn't like trousers then it is back to tights. Once she has rejected one don't enter any further discussion. Tone of voice is important-I have a no nonsense-this is what we are doing one, and don't have to shout. They can sense when I mean it-there is absolutely no way I would have a DC getting up once they had gone to bed. I would give a bit of leeway, as in you can look at books for 10 minutes before the light goes out, so that they get used to routine and feel they have a choice (to look at books or not).
You are the adult, they are the DC-in my house they follow my rules. I tell them that when they are grown up with their own house they can do it their way!
I would relax on some things-if they want to go around the house without warm clothing I would let them get on with it; I think they would put another layer on before too long!

She does as she is told at nursery, so she can do it. She is running rings around you because she knows she can get away with it.

op my ds1 was very challenging (still is at 10!) I tried all the 'You'll do it because that's what I'm telling you to do' business and have come to the conclusion that with some children it just doesn't work.
You need to find what works for your child and stick with it.
Threatening to send her to a home etc clearly doesn't work so don't do it.
Things that worked with my ds at that age were using puppets/toys and generally role play to ask him to do things - he loved that. Try showering her with love and see what happens.

If she has decided not to wear trousers so much the better - wear your tights, OR I will need to put trousers on you. That is a rational consequence of refusing appropriate clothing, and IMO a reasonable response. Being sent away for not dressing properly is neither rational nor realistic.

What country are you in? Your OP said that pooing in pants could lose DD her nursery place. Not legally in UK.

"Somebody who worries far too much about the normal obstinacy of young children. Somebody who feels very insecure about her position in society (worrying about whether her child will be taken away is not a main concern for most parents)."

that's pretty accurate.

just saw her teacher tonite, as we had the meeting scheduled anyway. the not-listening is going on at nursery, too. They are taking her hands (not roughly) and making DD look when people are talking to her. She seems to not look and not listen. We will try this at home, to get her to listen.

The pooping only happened once, and the teacher said not to make a big deal of it.

since most people suffered in one way or another at the hands of their parents - i mean, psychologically or emotionally, not just physical abuse - maybe all children should be brought up by 'experts' instead of leaving it to damaged people (ie most people). can any one say that their parents didn't make one mistake? can anyone say they are now perfect parents themselves? if so, go ahead, i'm listening.

i live in fear of social services, yes. i'm sure i would have been taken away from my mother if we lived in this society, and i'm sure my mother would have been taken away from hers. not because of anything physical, but just by being insecure people ourselves, we make bad parents.

(wow that is going to get you going... i expect a knock at the door any moment..)

I will NOT make any more threats, though. Got a book from the library and the very first chapter mentions empty threats. so goodbye to them - that's one good thing that's come of this.

-OP-

ps "just put her in trousers rather than skirts?" has refused to wear trousers since she was 2 1/2.

"What country are you in? Your OP said that pooing in pants could lose DD her nursery place. Not legally in UK."

it is the policy for them to be potty trained at state nursery in the UK. however today when i saw the teacher we talked about it, and that it had only happened once. if she starts to do it all the time then that might mean she is not potty trained.

It's very naughty of your nursery - it's contrary to the disability discrimination act, so not legal these days to refuse kids who aren't trained.

No mommycat, this is not going to start us flaming; it helps us to understand what is going around in your life and where you are coming from.

Sounds like your teacher has some good ideas about how to make dd listen, so that might be a good start. And trying to cut out the empty threats sounds good too (I know it's hard, half the time things slip out before you have time to think).

About the pooing in pants, your nursery may expect your dd to be potty trained, but new disability discrimination means (I think) that they can't exclude a child for this. Besides, even potty-trained children have accidents from time to time, even in Reception, that's to be expected. My dd was incontinent until Year 4; the school just had to put up with it. And I've known several little boys in Year 4 who have pooed their pants due to constipation.

If your dd starts soiling her pants regularly then it might mean all sorts of things, not necessarily that she is not potty trained (I wouldn't let the nursery get away with this; they should know their legal obligations). Nor does it have to mean that she is lazy or badly behaved. It can be medical or nerves or all sorts of things.

By mommycat on Thu 11-Dec-08 18:41:29
"since most people suffered in one way or another at the hands of their parents - i mean, psychologically or emotionally, not just physical abuse - maybe all children should be brought up by 'experts' instead of leaving it to damaged people (ie most people)."

This made me . Do most people suffer at the hands of their parents?

Mommycat

You know its threads like this that restore my faith in mumsnet, you seem to be taking what have been some quite harsh posts on board and making rational changes

You know though I can't help thinking you have some anxiety issues here that might benefit from professional intervention. Your fear of ss and of your dc being taken away seems to me to be disporportionate. It really isn't something the average parent worries about to this degree. Certainly taking a dc out without a coat will NOT result in you getting reported/acused of being a bad parent or your DC being placed in care. Thats simply not how ss work. Can I suggest you perhaps have a chat with your GP/HV and look at some counselling maybe to help you deal with these issues. If you can perhaps get them in proportion I think everything else will seem to be much more manageable.