Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

The problem in this country is you have to have a DH who earns quite a lot of money if you want to be a SAHM. It is not a valid choice for most women whose husbands earn the national average wage (£22k-ish).

In the 50s men who earned the national average wage could afford for their wives to be SAHMs. So how is it that now when both partners work we are no better off than when only one partner worked?

I think it is because too many people in the work force (due to more women working) depresses wages. Plus house prices have risen because people use two incomes to get a mortgage meaning everyone else has to have two incomes to buy a house and then has to keep two incomes coming in after a baby comes along to continue to afford the mortgage. I think there are a lot of luxuries these days that people think are necessities too.

I think that you have to have a DH/DP who earns quite a lot of money if you want to be a SAHM while enjoying a reasonably comfortable life and feeling properly inserted into society anywhere in the developed world.

It is very true that house price inflation in the UK is the cause of much stress - people who, by the standards of their parents' generation, have studied for a long time and have prestigious careers, feel deprived because their housing is not as nice (as large or as architecturally pleasing) as the housing their parents' could afford on a single income. But we all have a lot more (new) consumer goods than our parents' generation and have higher expectations in terms of holidays, travel, entertainment etc.

So the housing market going crazy (due to using two incomes to get a mortgage) has had a detrimental effect on all our lives because we feel like we have worse housing for the same amount of money and both partners have to work to maintain it. Crazy.

The UK could have reigned in house price inflation by legislating on borrowing, though.

Population increases also increase price pressure on housing. As does the proportion of single person households.

The govt didn't want to reign in house price inflation tho cos it made us feel well off (cos of equity in our homes) during the global downturn a decade ago... how ironic cos it has actually made us all worse off. Thankfully house prices are coming down now which they had to do... unfortunate for those forced to buy at the top of the market.

Equity in homes is all pretty academic for most people though, since all they are interested in is whether they have a roof over their heads and can afford a comfortable lifestyle within it.

I never did cc to any of my children ...the only thing i did that came near to that was when my daughter was about 20 month old and wouldnt sleep unless i was in the room( going off and waking in the night) i did some research and decided to leave her to cry as long as she was safe and not in any danger....it took three days of listening to her scream but it broke the cycle. Sometimes it feels we are being cruel but in long term it is worth it ....a happy mum is a good mum

Hi Sarah, what you did sounds like CC to me. I think it is a valid technique in some circumstances.

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My DP is fabulous at childcare for all his three children. No complaints at all on that score.

He's not so hot at housework, however .

There are some interesting points on this thread

1. Children who sleep through before 16wks is just luck. I certainly disagree. Children learn sleep cues i.e. from a routine. If a child goes to sleep at different times every day then the body clock and circadian rhythem develops very slowly. If a child is got to sleep at set times by whatever means at the same time each day, after a couple of weeks they are ready to sleep at these times because they have a set sleep pattern. If routine is introduced early then a pattern emerges early., With both my dds they slept all night and set naps exactly 4wks after routine was introduced. DD1 was 12wks, dd2 was 7mths.
2. Negotiation with toddlers for trivial things where the outcome isn't important is fine, however, children feel most secure when they know which behaviour produces what outcome. Inconsistency is confusing. Routine provides consistency in that the child finds it comforting to know when he will be fed, have sleep, play, etc. In children without routine their anxiety about not knowing what will happen next often comes out in aggressive behaviour or the child can become withdrawn.
3. The nursery where children are rocked and patted to sleep sounds lovely, however, having done placements and visited a few over the years I think it must be a rarity. Most nurseries do not have time to rock babies to sleep and I would put good money on the dc being CC for a few days to learn to self settle- they obviously wouldn't do this while parents are present. Otherwise all the children would have to be rocked and patted (with the exception of the parents who pre-empted return to work and the child needing to be able to self settle.) I always find it amusing when parents do AP and then expect to find a CM/nursery who will carry round in slings etc. How can they? I could have 3 children under 18mths, so how could it be possible or fair to the other children if I carried one round all day and not the others? CC is not cruel. It is necessary for the good of everyone in my household. My dd2 was bf and co-slept while feeding until she outgrew the moses basket at 3mths. Then she went into her own room as we couldn't fit the cot in our room. I continued to feed on demand which was basically at every night time whimper. She woke 3-4 times per night before CC and this gradually reduced to none over 1 mth, with the exception of teething. Anyway, can't post again as I need to get my napping dds up!

The external routine of a child has absolutely no impact on the speed of development of its biorhythms . Claiming that it does is a bit like claiming that if you hold your child in a standing position it will learn to walk earlier.

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Neenz

I disagree with this statement:

'The problem in this country is you have to have a DH who earns quite a lot of money if you want to be a SAHM.'

On the contrary, you have to be able yourself to earn around £24k net in order to put 2 children into a fairly average nursery.

Many women are forced to stay home because of this.

I agree with this however:

'So how is it that now when both partners work we are no better off than when only one partner worked'

Couples with children now do three jobs between them instead of only 2. A job each PLUS childcare! The economy and inflation is based on dual income households. WOmen's right to work imo has made women HAVE to work to keep on a level playing field.

Now, as you can imagine, women HAVING to work, coupled with inaffordable childcare is the position many many women find themselves in and quite honestly I can understand the need to get your kids asleep for a good 12 hours during the night with this type of worry and lifestyle!

mytether

1. If children sleep through the night before 16 weeks WITHOUT a routine is it just luck then? I go to bed at a different time each night and I certainly don't have any trouble sleeping through. I think your point is a bit silly imo.

2. 'Inconsistency is confusing' I should imagine that 95% of a toddlers life is confusing. Inconsistency is life. Mum says no, Nan says yes. Mummy didn't mind me banging this door yesterday but today she shouts at me every time I do it because she has a headache. Last week we went to the toddler group in the pram in the rain, today we are walking in the sunshine and I'm wearing my wellies. I think this point is nonsense too. You can ensure children know what is coming without a routine.

Yes, my DD slept through the night from birth until 4 months. Complete good fortune. She started waking up once or twice thereafter.

Yes I'd like to think sleeping through before 16 wks is down to good management rather than luck . No idea if it is true but I got two babies sleeping through at 11 and 13 weeks (DT2 took longer cos she had a hernia which was operated on at 12 wks and before that couldn't sleep well cos of the pain ). I think sleeping thru was very much to do with trying to get them to self-settle from the start and never rocking them to sleep. But also it has to be to do with whether they can get enough milk in them in the day to get thru the night without a feed and that has to be pure luck depending on how good a feeder the baby is.

Starlight, yes you are right - you need to earn a good wedge to put kids in nursery and that is why there are thousands of 60-something grandmas who thought their days of looking after young childrn were over... looking after their grandkids (for free) so their poor daughters can go to work to pay the mortgage. I totally agree that women working has led to a situation where many HAVE to work when they would rather be at home with their kids (many do want to work tho esp. part-time). Don't know what the solution to that situation is except to pay mothers to stay at home to look after their children if they choose to. Never going to happen but I would be very interested to see an economic model for a govt which pays mums to stay at home and look after their own children (instead of giving them money to pay for childcare so they can go out to work).

Mytether, I pretty much agree with everything you said!

MyTetherisEnding: thanks for participating in the discussion... you make some valid points, and I do agree with certain parts of them, but not with everything.

1. I agree that children are helped by 'sleep cues' in order to learn to sleep better (or to be helped to sleep better). Why do you assume however that this can only be done on a specific routine? In my (limited) experience, babies tend to create their own rythms / routines if they're left to their own devices for a few months. I do try to follow some 'rules', e.g. I try not to let my 4-month old get overtired (tried this from when he was a tiny newborn), so 2 hours or so after he's woken up from his nap, I put him down for another nap again. I have some 'cues' that mean naptime- curtains drawn, sleeping bag on, story read, mobile on & in bed. It always works within minutes. I also have a bedtime routine- bath, boob, bed. I find that DS has more or less standard times for naps & bedtime- with a difference of 1 or 2 hours here or there. He never seems confused to me, & I feel I would be pressuring him (and myself) needlessly if I were to insist on particular times to the minute. The fact that I don't insist on a particular routine for such a young baby does not mean I practice AP by the way. One is not the same as the other. Also: in my opinion routines can be great, but certainly not for breastfed tiny babies. I feel that Gina Ford & even the baby whisperer (which I much prefer) show complete ignorance for how breastfeeding works, and this should be pointed out to everyone who's trying to follow their routines. Even if someone were to adhere to the sleep routines, I would say it's dangerous- and wrong for the child- to adhere to their feeding routines especially in the first 6 months of life, when breastfeeding.

2. I agree with your second point, there has been quite a bit of discussion on this thread about negotiation, and I do think of it in a similar way, that some rules need to be agreed on (or insisted on by parents). But this applies more to toddlers,surely not to newborns?! And lots of CC involves very very young babies who have not had the chance yet to find their own sleep rythm- which very often they fall into naturally by 6 months or so, without needing to go through CC at an age where I'm not sure they understand what's going on. If you're referring to CC after 6-7 months, then I suppose that's a slightly different discussion. But personally I would never do CC to enforce a routine, while (theoretically) I might be forced to do it- or something similar- if I were completely exhausted for months on end & nothing else seemed to work. What I'm saying is, it's not a first port of call for me, but perhaps a last resort.

3. I have no idea about your third point (regarding nursery). I suspect that if it were me, I'd be inclined to try to solve any sleep problems my child has, as best I can, BEFORE they go to nursery. I wouldn't really expect nursery to solve such sleep problems, nor would I expect them to rock my baby to sleep etc.

tether:

1. Agree with maria here - I dont think babies should be expected to sleep through before 6 months nor should they be tweaked before then actually - as how do you know that they are not hungry?Neenz - how did you know that your babies werent hungry in the night? That takes a very brave person - braver than me it has got to be said .I also do they same things before bedtime with both my dcs but there is an hour here or there depending on how long dinner/bath etc has taken and whether its a school night or not.

2. I do like to have set mealtimes though as I think that my dcs benefit from not getting too hungry or tired to eat etc - I dont really like (and this is just my opinion) snacky eaters and didnt want to encourage it. This is purely to fit in with me and what I like to do but then I'm providing the food so...

3. my ds' nursery am sure would have used cc to some degree if he hadnt already been settling - there was no way I was going to let some 16 year old do this (apologies if this sounds offensive to any 16 year olds out there) so I did it myself before he went - likewise the feeding, I didnt want him having formula (and he was younger than a year) and so made sure he was used to having a snack at the times I knew they would want to give him formula...

we should have a pool of 100 bf babies who slept through on here - I would be interested to see what the results were - anecdotally it has got to be tiny hasnt it - Anna your experience notwithstanding...

oh and I almost forgot - its a choice to own your own home isnt it - its far cheaper to rent in most of the country and means that both partners can work less...we rent for exactly this reason.

my impression is that routines and cc don't mean denying food. offering a feed is always the first port of call . . .even if you are doing cc.

when i did it, i started with daytime naps after feeds and actually never had the nighttime crying but if i did, would offer the boob first.

and i think if you are somewhat tuned in, you know and can hear if your baby is hungry or just having a hard time settling back to sleep. (although acknowledge as some have said before that some babies' cries may all sound distressed)

I have a routine with my 6 month old and get her in bed every night about 7 - 7.30pm. She has a 'dream feed' about 11pm and then goes through til about 7.30 (although has been known to sleep til 9!) If she wakes up though she can come into bed with me. I do not like to leave her cry. She clearly gets upset. That is why I do not like CC. If your baby is crying and upset then he/she needs a cuddle. It is cruel to leave them to cry! Even just being there to stroke back / face etc is better than leaving a baby. Let's not forget that these are defenceless little babies who rely on us for everything, what kind of example are we teaching them if we just leave them to cry!!

there's crying and crying . . .some of my friend's babies have a kind of whingey grumble before they go off to sleep. cuddling them at that point would interrupt their own settling process.

i mean, that's the only way they can communicate so it doesn't always mean utter distress.

Back eventually.
starlight by having the basics happen at the time, which is entirely possible babies feel more secure. Obviously there will be changes as children grow, however, my dd1 has the same routine at almost 3yo as she had at 18mths. Because she consistently goes to bed at 7pm (slightly more relaxed now for things like xmas/birthday etc) she inevitably asks to go to bed and have stories at this time of night.

I agree that GF is not a good book to use while breastfeeding. I did it after I stopped both times and within weeks it worked. My dd1 was 6wks when I stopped and slept 2230-7 at 8wks. DD2 was 6mths when I stopped and slept 2230-7 by 7mths. This to me illustrated that once babies have been waking in the night for months rather than weeks it takes longer to break the habit.

The reason I knew mine were not hungry was that they were being ff on the GF routine at the set times, taking every oz of milk offered and were gaining plenty of weight weekly. Had they not gained well I would have continued feeding in the night. I also had 2 big babies so their growth was probably more steady than a smaller baby (dd2 is now 24.5lb at 8.5mths so I blatantly haven't starved them!

Oh and GF talks lots of sense in the point of having set nap times/putting babies down 2hrs after they wake up etc. Both mine started to sleep at night once the daytime naps were regulated.