Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

Agree completely about the totally female environment, it's true that for many generations that was the case (not that it was necessarily good, remember, there has been a feminist movement in between). I think though it doesn't have to do with the male vs female aspect, but with the one-adult versus more-adults aspect, what I'm saying is that men can do a perfectly good job of looking after a very young baby, I really don't see why that wouldn't be the case. And I do disagree completely (on a theoretical level, so perhaps not relevant for this discussion?) that one person only (specifically: the mother) is what the baby needs. I think that puts far too much of a burden on the mother, & is not based on valid research- there is for example lots of criticism on attachment theory, and also on 'bonding' theory-, and anyway the totally female environment that you rightly mention was composed of many more adults caring for the baby, not just one woman, the mother.
Anyway, we went on a tangent again This thread is very interesting because it keeps going on so many different directions...

If fathers want to help look after their little babies, that's fine by me, as long as they don't negatively impact the mother-baby bond and, in particular, effective breastfeeding. But unfortunately that does sometimes happen - it's quite a big issue here in France (perhaps not so much in the UK).

I'm an ardent feminist and I will fight tooth and nail for a mother's right to care for her own baby .

Anna, would be interested to know, how do the fathers negatively impact bf in france? perhaps by not being supportive to bf, seeing the breasts as more sexual? That would be a good example, yes, of fathers not helping things, I agree that when the couple chooses to go down the bf route both have to be on board, otherwise it won't work. However, fathers can do many other things if they're available, and I think it's important that they are, they don't necessarily help (a word which implies the mother takes the front seat) they can also take an equally active role. Which however is something not supported by society, sadly... Anyway, just my views, I think the mother is central (obviously) to bf, but parenting (even in the first few months) is not all about bf, fathers can do so many other things.

Maria2007 - fathers negatively impact breastfeeding by, for example, insisting that babies are FF so that they can share feeding and/or "get their wives [sexual partners] back asap". Variants are insisting that babies are mixed fed (which tends to kill BF off pretty fast) or insisting mothers wean from the breast very early.

However- and bringing it back a bit to the CC discussion- many mothers become extremely isolated & exhausted due to lack of support, and because of the idea that they are the ones primarily responsible for their babies. So they can become very demoralized because everyone assumes it's their role as the primary caregiver to do everything right etc, leading to guilty feelings when they go down routes such as CC- which after all, however much we may disagree with versions of it, is something that has always been done with children, leaving them to cry a bit- and sometimes a lot-, because of inadequate resources for supporting the parents, because of having more than one children, and just because of practical considerations. As for feminism- feminism surely is also about supporting a father's right and duty to care for his own baby (and pitifully little has been done about that) and also about supporting a mother's right to parent in any way she sees fit, that even being NOT being the primary caregiver, not breastfeeding etc? I'm just saying there are many ways to be a good parent, not just one- the mother-centric one.

I see what you mean about fathers sabotaging BF in that way. As I said, for BF to work, both partners need to be on board....

Oh I certainly couldn't adhere to "supporting a mother's right to parent in any way she sees fit". That sounds dangerously PC to me - I believe in good judgement not "anything goes". I don't think people (either fathers or mothers) have the right to parent any way they please - I think they have a duty to educate themselves about science and to make informed parenting choices.

from about 3 weeks, my dh gave last feed of EBM to our DD every night. I am still BF and planning to continue until I go back to work when she is 10 or 11 months possibly longer.

We also take turns to bath her, change her and take her out, so that we both get quality time with her as well as some headspace . . .

It was a pleasure for him to do this, she took the bottle from him no problem and although she is getting more picky about who does what, we have no regrets or plans to change the way he is as hands-on as possible in the child-care.

i consider myself a feminist and so does dh and we consider shared childcare a valid choice.

Men and society in general puts a huge amount of pressure on women to return to work very quickly after giving birth. Sabotaging breastfeeding is a good way of "helping" women return quickly to the workforce [cynical emoticon]

yes but men & society also put a HUGE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE on women to not return to work at all & concentrate on motherhood. That has been a far bigger pressure if you look at the wider picture, and in my book that's still an ongoing fight. E.g. helping parents- both parents- find a better balance for themselves & their children. I can't see how women can be encouraged to make choices about themselves e.g. go back to work, & still be good mothers, if fathers don't have their share of childcare.
And by the way, I am fully supportive of long maternity leave, but would also love to see long paternity leave as well.

Maria2007 - I was talking about France (in response to your earlier question) where I would say that there is no pressure on women whatsoever not to return to work.

Tinseljuice, me & DP are doing a similar thing, & it's worked well for us... we feel very lucky to be able to joinly look after our boy (although of course there are financial difficulties involved for the moment too)...

From my own, v. limited (study of 1) experience, I think Anna is right about the bonding thing - it's more complex than simply who looks after the baby, bonds with the baby. For various reasons - entirely transparent and manageable - I do 99% of the childcare in our household (this time of year is particularly work heavy for my DH). But my DD ADORES him. When I carry her around the house, she cranes her neck, looking in the rooms for him, calling out for him; and her face when he calls back is a picture. Admittedly, we co-sleep, so that may have a positive bonding effect.

Trying to bring the discussion back (desperately!) to CC... ( not that we have to, just thinking it might be interesting!)... in france, anna, do people generally do CC or cry-it-out do you think? And what are the prevalent views about letting babies cry?

I am giving examples of how fathers having "their fair share" of childcare can be abused and how women end up losing out - but still being told by society that they are liberated because they are working. Sadly, I do think that many, many French women are under huge pressure to work and are not conscious that a bit longer at home with their babies would be a nice alternative for them and their families.

Penthesileia: not sure if you meant that bonding is equally possible with the father? If so, I agree completely, my son does exactly the same that you describe with your daughter, he cranes his neck every time DP enters the room, follows him with his eyes everywhere, smiles at him every time he addresses him & it's generally very very clear to me that he has an equal bond with both me & DP. And in our case too, co-sleeping has probably played a role in this, as DP is very involved in all of my son's night-wakings.

Hi Maria - sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that I agreed that each parent sharing the (physical) task of childcare equally as you describe you & your DH doing does not necessarily need to be the thing that 'causes' bonding between parent and child. My DH does very little physical childcare (nappy changing, dressing, bathing, let alone feeding...!), but, as I said, my DD is clearly as 'bonded' him as she is with me. He is demonstrably affectionate with her, I suppose: cuddling, kissing, holding, when he can, but not a 50% presence, IYSWIM!

Got to go - she's just woken from her morning nap!

I would see if very differently actually - I think (as a feminist) that it is important to promote dual parenting because otherwise men have no incentive to fight for more flexible working etc and thus women (generally) are tied to going back to work earlier and working part-time or more flexibly themselves putting them on the so-called 'babytrack'.

I see men being fully involved with their children as being quite a political act and one that resonates far beyond the childcare issue itself.

I dont think men put pressure on women to return to work - if anything amongst my friends it is the other way around - there is more pressure to be a sahm.

Giant- agree completely.

Maria2007 - earlier in the thread there was a good exchange about what French parents typically do about crying/routine.

oops, must have missed that. Will look back to find it. Thanks Anna (I do remember that at some point it was written that in france routine is very big, i.e. many parents prefer that type of parenting?) But will look back to see.

I think it is very important "to promote dual parenting". I don't think, however, that mothers and fathers are interchangeable carers but that they have different and complementary parenting roles.

giantsantasacks - I can completely understand that in parts of UK society there is pressure on women to be SAHMs.

But here in France that pressure really doesn't exist - quite the opposite - and I am highlighting some of the way a society in which women are expected to work can disadvantage the feminist cause .

anna - what are the different and complementary roles? apart from the feeding of course...

anna - surely what we are striving towards is meaningful and practical (ie not just lip service) parental choice?