Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

Lol @"Maybe we were all awake screaming and she was in a coma."

Sorry that tickled me (hoping it's not true as wouldn't be funny then)

I did say I hadn't read all of them...but it was a serious point nonetheless, expressed "emotively" because it is a sound that is biologically programmed to evoke an emotional response, presumably for an evolutionary purpose.

But I do know that some people are tougher/more sensible/etc/choose your own adjective when it comes to a baby's cry and that one person's considered intelligent response is another person's torture...

hully, on the issue of instinctive maternal reaction to a babies' cries, I dare say some mothers are more affected than others, these same mothers might see their 'instinct' diminish with each child (lol), some children cry harder than others and for longer - maybe stronger survival instinct?

Hullygully: "it is a sound that is biologically programmed to evoke an emotional response, presumably from an evolutionary purpose"

...Except that's just a particular point of view. Personally I also jump at my 4 month's old every cry (a bit of PFB there ) but you know, in previous generations babies' cries WERE NOT seen in the way we see them now. My mum & many other mums in her generation would feel it was perfectly ok- even necessary- to leave their babies to cry because they saw them very differently from how we see children today. The way we see children (how a certain culture sees children) changes all the time. As for the evolutionary purpose behind all this, I personally really really have a problem with psychological theories that use evolutionary arguments, they don't convince me at all, but that's my personal point of view.

Don't get me wrong- I too would find it really bizarre if a parent was completely unaffected by their child's prolonged crying. I think though that that's quite rare, parents being unaffected like that. And from what I hear from friends who have ended up using CC- they found it extremely hard themselves, especially those parents whose babies put up a huge protest & cried a lot. It's not as if they go to the other room & completely ignore the babies! They're probably doing it to solve an entrenched sleep problem,& that's a completely different story than ignoring a baby's cries just because you feel like it.

"that's a completely different story than ignoring a baby's cries just because you feel like it."

I don't think the baby could tell the difference.

I think evolutionary arguments are jolly interesting. On another note my mother and her friends were reminiscing the other day about the difficulty of ignoring their babies as they had been told to do by the child-rearing ethos of their day, and instructing their own mothers not to pick the babies up as it would spoil them. It made my mother sad to see me and my friends with our babies. You could say these are simply different approaches to child-rearing, and technically of course they are,as indeed was sending them off to wet nurses in the country, swaddling boards etc etc, but if you think about the baby and what it requires for its own best interests, does that really change so much no matter what the prevailing culture in which it finds itself?

Maria, thanks for your post, it was very interesting. Anna is just miffed cos you criticised her and said she was arrogant. Take it on the chin Anna, I've had to on this thread.

Hully - I agree that the sound of a baby crying provokes a profound response in the mother - physical as well as emotional. (Although, sadly, there are cases out thre that would suggest that not all mothers feel that way but lets not go there - this thread is not about those cases - whatever your views on CC).

However, I would echo what Maria said. In all of the RL instances that I know of where parents have employed CC, that emotional and physical response is absolutely there. It is tortuous and I know of no-one who embarks on it lightly - rather they are driven to it by extreme circumstances and genuinely believe they are doing the right thing for their baby. You may disagree with their actions but to say that they have no response is not generally the case.

It can be both an intelligent response AND torture. They are not mutually exclusive.

"but if you think about the baby and what it requires for its own best interests, does that really change so much no matter what the prevailing culture in which it finds itself?"

I doubt it! However, the reason this is all so difficult is that every generation and culture keeps re-interpreting what IS in the best interests of the baby. The needs may not change but we are not always sure what they ARE.

We are bombarded with advice, all of which conflicts and all of which eckons it is in the best interests of the baby.

Maria2007 I've have just read your post (the essay)
03-Dec-08 11:30:04 and think it's and excellent post and you 'talk' a lot of sense in it.

Thanks Juuule Yes I'm good at essays... not so good at getting my baby to sleep, but that's another story ! Hopefully he'll outgrow his sleeplessness & DP & I will survive this

Really? Not sure of what a baby's basic needs are? What about common sense (oh god I am my grandmother).

I take it that was directed at me?

I was not talking about basic needs. I was quoting you about "best interests" - which I interpreted as being wider than basic needs.

I have quite a bit of common sense as it happens.

'It is tortuous and I know of no-one who embarks on it lightly - rather they are driven to it by extreme circumstances and genuinely believe they are doing the right thing for their baby.'

I don't think many CCers do it because of extreme circumstances, or at least if that is the reason they have given they have usually an extremely narrowminded view of 'extreme'!

Perhaps they do it because they are overwhelmed by the demands of a new baby, taken by surprise, have unrealistic expectations and haven't put strategies in place to enable them to cope with a newborn.

I think many, many, many women fall victim to this because we let each other down by always needing to present an external image of 'coping' in an era when we now have very little family or community support and are unlikely to have had any previous experience of what life is like with a newborn. We are further pushed by cutural expectations to be fit to resume our life as it was pretty much without children within days of giving birth.

Agree, starlight.

I think many people do CC because the prevailing expectation that a baby will sleep through once it is past 6 months' or whatever and if not, that it is culturally acceptable for a baby to cry for x number of hours over x number of days to do it. If you mention seeing a sleep therapist for baby sleeping issues, it almost invariably involves some permutation of CC as if that is 'therapy' of r an abnormal situation.

You see threads on mn about mothers being advised to CC by their in-laws yet when you question further, the OP never considered any other option (eg co-sleeping) and did not even find the sleepless nights a big issue - but they are brainwashed into thinking there is a problem because their infant is still not sleeping through.

CC is recommended all over the media - the solution is so pat. I never heard about AP until I started researching on the internet because I knew my babies would not take well to CC. That is when I got away from the Gina Fords and Baby Whisperers and got to read about Sears and Deborah Jackson.

Elf - no, it wasn't directed specifically at you, it was a general point and further elucidation of my own point (clearly a signal failure - always a failure of typing over talking), but how do best interests and basic needs not converge (as you bring it up)? eg if a baby cannot take care of its own basic needs, because it is a baby, it relies on the parent to do it for it and tries to make that happen by providing the appropriate stimuli thereby acting in and for its own best interests to take care of its basic needs. Common sense comes in to it because if your body and brain are telling you to respond to the stimuli provided by your baby, you probably should, even tho it's a right pain in the arse.

Can I also sign up to the Maria2007 fanclub....

"many, many, many women fall victim to this because we let each other down by always needing to present an external image of 'coping' in an era when we now have very little family or community support "

This is exactly the reason though that parents who need to implement bedtime and/or sleep training should NOT be told its "ridiculous" or "cruel". Not many people these days have extended families to be heavily involved in helping them raise their children. I for one don't plan on motherhood being the altar where I sacrifice my sanity or marriage so have a bedtime of 7pm for DD (which means that I spend an hour or two in the evening alone with DH or whatever). It might not be what she 'needs' but you know what it is what I need and it that such a bad thing?

If you can get her to go to bed and to sleep at 7pm, good for you. Enjoy it.

mustincrease You could argue that you could adress why you need time in the evenings with you DH and work on reducing YOUR NEED in order to meet your DD's!

Practically impossible in our culture I know, but not entirely!

'Not many people these days have extended families to be heavily involved in helping them raise their children'

No, but there are other ways. If not CC was important enough to you you'd find them.

We live in a culture where our needs are intrinsically bound to our priorities. Many of our priorities are set by the culture that we live in wrt in particular competitiveness. I have heard many people say 'we need a new kitchen!' when they aren't even close to eating bakedbeans cold straight from the can!

I do find it very odd that some people think of parents as AP or CC. Most people I know muddle along doing whatever their instincts tell them.

eg "ccs are often routine-driven career types using daycare when their children are young and aps are often sahms"

Again I point out: I am a SAHM who works very part-time. DS has never been in daycare. I co-slept til 9mo, and BF til 20mo, and carried him in a sling. I also did CC. Where does that put me in your stereotypes?

I think it is a ridiculous assumption that parents do CC because they are more concerned with their LO's behaviour than emotions. I did CC because I had a desperately tired baby who would scream for hours and hours at night as I tried to cuddle/soothe him, and because I was so tired that I fell down the stairs. Both my baby's emotional wellbeing and my own were at the forefront of my mind.

If the child is happy to go to bed at 7pm and goes to sleep then I can't see anything wrong with that.

However, with mine some would be happy to go at 7pm but that would mean they'd be awake and raring to go when I wanted to go to bed. So if they wanted to stay up later then we let them. Which meant they would sleep through a core period of the night.

Some wouldn't be ready to go to bed at an early time and if we tried to make them go would have screamed themselves to exhaustionn which we weren't prepared to let happen (although we did try this a couple of times as people had assured us this was necessary). Didn't work and just ended up with everyone upset and distressed.

Juule: She does sleep quite easily at the start of the night (which for me is the most important time in order to get a break as she is so high need all day) and then we co-sleep from the middle of the night which works for us.

I do accept btw this set of circumstances only works with DD and other dcs might have their own ideas. When that time arrives we will look at other solutions to preserve the harmony of the whole family whether CC which I have never tried or more co-sleeping.

Starlight I think you judge others too harshly or maybe your tolerance threshhold is very high... I dunno I don't have the answer but I just do my best and hold my breath while crossing every finger that DD reaches adulthood in one piece after my cackhanded attempt at parenting.

I have learned a lot from this thread and thank Neenz for providing the platform