Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

starlight, I am AP at heart but a realist in execution.

I would agree with your dh! I also find it paradoxical that what we value in adults can sometimes be diametrically opposed to what we want in our children.

You want adults who speak their mind but then dismayed at a baby who cries too much. You envy adults who don't need too much sleep but also envy parents of babies who sleep for 15 hours straight. You want teenagers with the confidence to resist peer pressure but then baulk when your schoolage child wants to choose their bedtime. Barmy.

maria, congrats! Wearing my AP hat and speaking from hard experience, I shall say about your ds' sleep habits: "This too shall pass ..."

is there really a rule about people coming in late to a discussion? Well I for one dont mind - in fact I would see that rule as a bit authoritarian

Elffriend I don't see them as opposites but I do think that often CC focus on behaviour whereas AP focus on emotions.

This is my assumption btw, and woul be interested in more of a discussion about it.

From my rl experience also I have began to stereotype ccs and aps. ccs are often routine-driven career types using daycare when their children are young and aps are often sahms. I think this is a fairly widely-held stereotype to be honest but as we all know very few people actually fit stereotypes exactly!

starlight - I do know lots of routine sahms and some wohm mums who are more ap so am not sure that holds up.

and dont behaviour and emotion often go hand in hand - ie the more well rested your baby is the more contented - or if thats too unmeasurable and contentious then not screaming?

Blueshoes: I like your AP at heart & realist in execution. Sounds like a great approach And as for the 'this too shall pass'.... well I really hope you're right! There's much to be said about children's developmental ability to sleep better. So I'm waiting...

Starlight: well you're certainly right about the stereotypes. But interestingly, I have a good friend who claims to be following her son (who is 7 months), has no set bedtime, wouldn't even think of CC, always responds when he cries, and is generally quite close in many ways to some of the AP principles. On the other hand, she only BF for a short time, and started working full time (REALLY full time) when her boy was 3 months. On the other hand, I have another friend who follows much more strict rules, has had a routine for her twins from the beginning, has let her babies cry occassionally... and yet she's a wonderful, sweet mum, and is also a SAHM.

As you say, very few people actually fit stereotypes... most probably, as Elffriend says, parents mix & match bits of this philosophy & that...

I suppose where my question came from is that I see CC as a specific practice addressing a specific issue rather than an underlying philosophy of parenting.

I'm not sure many of us actually HAVE an underlying philosophy and I think that is where I struggle with the stereotypes.

What did I/do I focus on in DS? I would say both behaviour and emotions. I dn't know anyone who focuses on only one aspect. Perhaps this is where we get ourselves into knots in criticising each other - we polarise artificially when there is no need.

I do agree that there is a widely held perception that APs sit at home weaving their own sanitary towels (sorry, mooncups)and kneading bread with the baby attached to one bared nipple, whilst routine followeres (into which you are putting the CC practicioners) wear power suits, thump board room tables and fax the baby his milk at bedtime.

I don't know either of those women though!

I think there is probably some truth in the fact that it is easier to have a routine in place if you are working. Just as it is easier to 'go with the flow' if you are at home and can fit the day around the baby(ies).

However, I'm not sure it follows that all mums who work outside the home focus only on their child's behaviour and leave them in an emotional vacuum and vice versa.

As you say, people don't tend to fit with stereotypes but we still beat ourselves and choose camps in which to be or put people.

No wonder so many new mums end up in a complete mess wondering what they are "supposed" to do!

Elffriend: agree completely with all you say LOL about faxing the milk at bedtime. Sometimes wish I was able to do that

Am I the only one that hates these labels? I breast fed on demand, co-slept, but also put my babies into a strict sleep routine from quite a young age.

I cured my insomnia by implementing a sleep routine, so it seems common sense to me that a routine is an aid to good sleep. I'm sure traditional cultures fall asleep and wake up at the same time each day.

I also worked quite hard to stop night feeds as early as possible. ie when the baby was waking for comfort rather than nutrition. Selfish, maybe?, but I do think I was a better mother after a good night's sleep

annoyingdevil: agree completely Also: what on earth could be problematic about falling asleep & waking up at roughly the same time?! Of course this has been discussed already at length on this thread... you know, that some babies resist a set bedtime etc. Which probably is true for some babies, but I would think that for most babies, being 'nudged' the right direction (or the direction that the parent thinks is right) also works pretty well.

gianykate Of course it holds up. The word 'stereotype' is itself a disclaimer.

And no, I don't believe behaviour and emotions go hand in hand at all. Behaviour is external, what people see, which can be a huge gulf away from what we feel.

Are you making an assumption that only CC babies will be well rested?

LOL at 'APs sit at home weaving their own sanitary towels (sorry, mooncups)and kneading bread with the baby attached to one bared nipple, whilst routine followeres (into which you are putting the CC practicioners) wear power suits, thump board room tables and fax the baby his milk at bedtime.'

That's what I meant. I don't actually believe it though, but if someone told me they were an AP I would probably see/judge them as being of a certain type, same with CCer. But before you judge ME for that, we all do it, that is, use prior experience to give ourselves some predictability about the world and people so that we best know how to act. For example, I'm less likely to begin a conversation about longer term bfing with a ccer than a AP, and less likely to enter into a discussion about juggling work/childcare with an AP. It doesn't mean I can't, just that I'd be more cautious until I had more info.

Of course, external 'behaviour' is important to get right. It underpins society, and if you have any behaviour that is at odds, you could do very badly.

Only a couple of points, haven't read the whole thread as am late arriving.
However

1. There is a huge difference between CC and crying it out.
2. CC is just that controlled and some babies find its their way to unwind because they are unable to have a good chunter about the days events due to not being able to talk.
3. Both my children have had CC and are good sleepers. DD1 did CC at 6wks and has never woken since unless ill. DD2 was 6mths and has slept well from 7mths, would have been sooner but started teething and suffered badly so obviously didn't do CC when that was the case.
4. I have seen no anxiety in DD1, she is a bright and happy, independent madam! DD2 is much more clingy, although is getting more independent in the last few months (now 8mths).
5. I would never leave my children to scream until they are exhausted AKA CIO. I did CC which meant going back in after 5, then 10 mins to resettle if they hadn't themselves and now have 2 children who go straight to bed and look forward to sleep. If I say to my 8mth old 'do you want to go in your cot now?' she leans towards it and gives me a huge grin after I have laid her down. She goes to sleep awake and knows how to resettle herself in the night. She has no dummy and doesn't thumb suck. DD1 is a thumb sucker which may have been a necessary comfort when she was a baby to help her resettle, she doesn't do it in the day. Now it is habit.

starlight - when I wrote well rested I meant generally not in context of this thread I could have just as easily written something else.

And if behaviour and emotions dont go hand in hand how do you tell when a baby is happy or unhappy - I tell through my babies behaviour - ie the crying.

Do people go round telling eachother that they are one thing or another? I think I must have missed the tick box form - I agree with the mix and match approach rather like annoyingdevil but think we're going round in circles as have definately said that before.

I have read the last three pages and am going to comment so ner ner ner ner ner. (Anna that was tres ungracieux, I thought you had better (Frenchy) manners.) Anyway, and apologies if it appeared on any page before 13, what about instincts? Doesn't the fact that hearing your baby cry produces intense discomfort and upset suggest that nature is saying go get 'em? I would say that I never managed any form of sleep anything - but they're both fine now and have set bed times.

From personal experience babies and toddlers do better with a longer stretch of night time sleep- however it is achieved is up to the parents IMO. I have observed that babies who wake up lots at night tend to be bad tempered through the day. Not just with my limited own children but with friends babies, mindees and other peoples mindees as well as my own.

'And if behaviour and emotions dont go hand in hand how do you tell when a baby is happy or unhappy - I tell through my babies behaviour - ie the crying.'

Behaviour indeed can be an expression of our emotions, but it very often isn't. Certainly you're right that we can only react to other people's behaviour, NOT their emotions, but that doesn't invalidate their emotions or mean they don't exist.

The AP approach I believe is aimed at teaching a baby that their emotions are imortant despite/through their behaviour, wheras the CC may be argued to be teaching a baby that their behaviour is more important than their emotions or expression of them.

The problem being that babies crying doesn't mean necessarily the same thing every time.
i.e. anger
frustration trying to do new things
tired
uncomfortable- dirty nappy/illness
relief like children crying when parents come back to collect after being at work. Not necessarily due to being unhappy with the CM by the way, just glad that the parent has come back iyswim.
The point being that crying can be because a baby is upset but can also be due to anger/frustration/tiredness. If mine were tired, the more I picked them up the more angry they became. They settled far more quickly if left. All that happened was they cried on me and it made no difference.

But what about that terrible thin wail that rises in the middle of the night and makes the hair on the back of your neck stand on end? Does it matter what the cause is? Wouldn't you rush to make it better?

No Hully. It does not matter at all. We would never attend our babies no matter the cause. sod 'em.

Oh all right then. I have got one friend who has worn ear plugs through all four of her kids and they seem all right.

Sorry if that was a bit abrupt - but emotive comments like your last one can come over as rather irritating when so many people have tried to put across sensible viewpoints - which I am guessing you have either not read or you genuinely don't understand what people have tried to write.

My mum had 4 in 4yrs 8months. When people asked her whether the youngest slept through the night she always replied

'I have no idea - I do!'

If I could find a stereotype for a child of an AP he'd definately be most like it. No GSCE's or A-Levels but 1st Class OU degree, owns property, runs restaurant, goes to music festivals, travels the world etc. etc.

How did she manage that Starlight? Mine usually woke one of the others up aswell.

Dunno. Maybe we were all awake screaming and she was in a coma. I forgot to add that my dad was away from home too