Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

School-age children sleeping in the car on the way...? I missed that.
If any of mine had been falling asleep in the car on the way to school I'd have thought they were ill. It would have been completely out of character.

No, my bedtime-choosing dd does not fall asleep in the car to school (7:30 am breakfast club) or from school. I find it difficult to take this tiredness at school thing seriously.

This is a plead to parents who think that their children will eventually find their own way of settling themselves to sleep and not do any form of CC (although not before one years old IMO). My parents couldn't bear to hear me cry so I was allowed to fall asleep on the sofa or in their arms at night then carried to bed. I have in adulthood had severe insomnia and sleep problems. I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

My DD (4) who chooses her own bedtime, doesn't fall asleep in the car (or more usually bus) on the way to school either. Sometimes we walk it too (1.4 km).

She is, however, frequently shattered at the end of a very long day (8.30 am to 6 pm quite often) and asks to go to bed very early indeed .

Tapster - do you think your parents were reacting to a child who had sleeping problems, or that your parents' attitude caused sleeping problems?

Juju - I would second the fact that this thread hasnt been that bad - I have actually found it really useful and informative- though people may scoff at that.

can I also ask if you let your dcs choose their bedtime how it works when they end up going to bed/feeling tired earlier than younger children - do they mind? I think I would struggle to get my (school age)ds to go to bed before his baby sister.

Mine don't mind. They just go up to bed.

giantkate - my DSS2 regularly goes to bed before either DD or DSS1. DSS1 sometimes goes to bed before DD. There is absolutely no problem at all with any of this since bedtimes are established on the basis of individual need, not some external perception of perceived hierarchy. Bedtime is not a privilege of age in our household.

I'm afraid I don't have much faith in controlled crying. We did it for DS1 because the HV bullied me into thinking he should be sleeping through the night at 5 months and he wasn't so naturally. I resisted until he was passed 6 mths but in the end, we did do it and it was horrible - I think I cried as much as he did and it took a week to get anywhere. We followed the book to the letter too.

I was fed the line that he would wake up happy and rested and glad of the sleep. Not true. He was grumpy and clingy first thing and not himself at all. He improved through the day but then was grumpy again the next day.

Anyway, we persevered and all was well for about 3 weeks. Then he started refusing to go to sleep again. At that point we decided that we weren't prepared to do the CC again and I went back to staying with him or feeding him to sleep. 6 weeks later he was settling all by himself again. I would think with hindsight that was the age he was always going to learn to settle himself and CC did nothing.

I didn't bother with CC with DS2 it just didn't seem worth it. He settled himself when he was ready too.

I don't think, in the unlikely event, I have any more children I would ever do it again. It just feels wrong. I suppose it works for some people but it wasn't for us.

Am feeling quietly at all the parents who are refreshed after another night of peaceful sleeping because they had the sense to spend three nights getting their child into a routine when they were little.

Here in the corydoras household we have had another night of fitful sleep interrupted by dd crying with pain. Like so many other nights over the last 12 years.

But apparently " God doesn't give out good sleepers, it's not about luck". Must be about me then.

anna - I wish I could do that and have bedtimes defined by individual need - then me and my dp could go to bed before any of the dcs, oh no hold on...

anna - more seriously, I can see what the idea is and applaud it even though its not for me.

I value having the individual time with my ds on his own for quiet reading/playing/and for the future homework i suppose just as his sister gets that time while he is in school.

Obviously spending time with each child individually is an issue that can sometimes be solved with staggered bedtimes. But I would try to see if, going forward, you can try to instil in your children a sense of meeting their own needs for sleep.

Sometimes (quite often, even) DP and I do go to bed at the same time as the children - we have long busy days and are often very tired by 9.30 pm. And probably in a couple of years time DSS1 will stay up later than us. That's OK.

Honestly, this has been a very friendly thread!
Which is cramping my style somewhat as I was building up to a nice rant

So many interesting tangents here..but allow me to be boring and go back to the OP.
There is some news and I would like to add it to this marvellous thread
and reference it in the future (for there will be more CC debates to come, no doubt!).

If you want to find out more directly from the professional horses mouth
have a look at the AIMH website - the Association for Infant Mental Health (AIMH) UK.
It's part of a worldwide network of child psychiatrists who are lobbying parents and governments
to take heed of attachment studies particularly in light of the latest brain research.

I think a lot of what they stand for is eminently sensible and deserves wider dissemination.
The things I have gleaned from their literature have certainly made me a better father.
And KUDOS to the AIMH for completely removing their anti-CC position paper! I am impressed.

DaddyJ There are 20 pages of references.

Can I ask though? Is it possible for CC to be incorporated into AP?

Certainly I know parents who consider themselves very responsive parents that believe CC gives them the opportunity to be able to respond better to their childrens needs!

God yes, Starlight! If you want to get into AP you better be a consummate reader

Yes, I completely believe it is and in fact that's what we have done with our dd.
Co-slept and breastfed to sleep AND sleep-trained using CC (night time) and CC with parental presence (naps).
Controlled comforting/shush pat/pupd did not work with dd, touching her wakes her up.
We did do NCSS by following one of the support threads on MN but NCSS sidesteps the main issue:
How do you persuade a baby that it is possible to fall asleep without a boob in her mouth?

Someone mentioned conditioning and yes CC is a form of conditioning
and for that reason it is best used when you are dealing with a different type of conditioning:
sleep only happens during bf/rocking/when being pushed in a buggy.

DaddyJ, thanks so much for that and for your previous post, which I failed to thank you for even though it was the post most fitting in to answer my OP. What do you make of what AIMH is saying?

Blueshoes, my twins usually sleep through. If they wake they often settle themselves, I get up to them if they are properly crying (rare). Then I feed them and they go back to sleep.

For those who let their kids choose their own bedtime, what time is this usually and is it the same time every night? If not, what does it depend on (eg. how active they have been etc) and what do they do when they are up, do they watch TV with you or play with toys etc?

For my DSSs who are 13 and 11, they choose bedtime based on (a) how tired they are (b) what time they have to get up the next morning (school can start at 8am / 9 am / 10 am or even later some days). We often have a "chat" about what would be a good time to go to bed that night at dinner - so it isn't completely their idea, we get them in the mood for an early night if they need one . But there is no resistance on their part - we nudge them, not kick them up the backside. And they certainly don't systematically need it.

For DD it's a bit different - some days she is much more tired than others. She likes to get into her nightclothes quite early in the evening so that she is "ready" to pop off to bed as soon as she is tired. And when she is, I go with her, she chooses a story or some kind of other book to look at, and we spend a little while doing that before she settles down. But her bedtime can be before 7 am and also after 10 pm.

My children generally go to bed between 8:15 and 8:45pm. I often have to encourage them to wind down before that. They tend to sleep on the later side of that range when dh comes home before their bedtime - this is because dh entering the house gives them fresh impetus to play and they want their fill of him.

For those you who have children who go to bed earlier, do they miss out on seeing the other parent before they go down?

When they are up, they play with toys, do drawing, play with each other, jump on beds and sofas, play at performances, sing loudly, have dinner with us, watch TV, dd runs through the day's events with me (this is her winddown routine). I am tired just typing this out.

If their school starts at different times each day (home schooling?) isnt it the point then that allowing them to choose their bedtimes is based on a completely different lifestyle?is it compatible with a set school time - mine starts at 8.25...

blueshoes - it is true that lots of my friends partners miss out on their dcs in the evening. My dp has changed his work hours and so comes home at 6 so that we can all eat together and he has had to fight for it at work and his career may well suffer - you make your choices though dont you...

Interesting, giant. I would love my dh to come home early but now that my ds is 2+ years and I have a live-in aupair, I need it less and would not want him to do it at the expense of his career.

Then again, my children seem to need less sleep that others. They have to be up by 7 am every weekday.

LOL Blueshoes at being tired just typing it.

My DH gets home at 6.30pm most nights just as I am getting the DTs out of the bath so he helps dry/dress one then has a cuddle with him while I feed DD and put her to bed, before feeding DS and putting him to bed. If he gets home after 7pm he doesn't see them. He sees them in the mornings and at weekends. Hopefully when they are older DH will be able to leave work a bit earlier cos I want us to have dinner as a family.

No, it is school that starts at a completely different time every day (and ends at a different time each day too). It isn't even the same week in-week out or for the whole class.

My DP sees DD quite a lot of mornings (he dropped her at school by car on the way to work this morning and yesterday). Sometimes he doesn't see her in evening, as he normally gets in between 7.45 and 8 pm and she is sometimes already in bed. But tbh it doesn't get her wound up again when he does get in - she is quite used to him coming and going.

When the DSSs are here she does sometimes get wildly overexcited.