2 year old lining up toys - should I be worried?

[Anotherbook]

Ds just turned 2 (in the last week) has in the last couple of weeks taken to lining up toys.We went for a picnic yesterday with a bag of toys and he got all the balls and lined them up side by side.He has also been doing this with his bob the builder vehicles and his play animals on his bedroom window shelf (so they look out of the window) and they have to be exactly level or he has a mini tantrum.He has also started to tidy his toys into boxes (thrown in mostly) sometimes.
He does play normally with the toys as well although compared to my older dd doesn't really play with toy kitchen/doll in imaginative play.
What I am worried about is ASD as his speech is also not that great for his age.He does point,wave and use some words (have counted up to 70)but it is variable and not as well as the children at his toddler group.
I did take him to the GP to ask about his speech a couple of months ago (he was saying less then) but she said as he was communicating well non verbally to wait and see.He is due for his 2 year HV assessment so I am going to ask for speech therapy referral (in case his progress doesn't continue) but wondered if I should flag up the recent lining up of his toys too.

"but losing temper if it is moved is less so" - do you think so? My DS would go nuts if you moved his line or tried to put it in line incorrectly (ie not touching) - he has seen a paediatrician and a HV and neither seem to think he is anything but normal. I think it would have to be allied with other indict=ators to be considered a problme.

there are tools one can use but best with professional guidance so hesitate to post, most kids will have 'odd' behaviours and remember autism is a spectrum disorder and people affected can fall anywhere within it.
many people lead perfectly normal lives while still being recognised as being within the spectrum

also in many cases autism is one of the 'conditions' affecting a person but often there will people other 'conditions' affecting general development

(this is actually meant to reassure, sorry is rubbish job doing so)

It could well be a phase, probably is. I have no idea one way or the other. But nothing is lost by getting an assessment and everything is gained. IF there is no problem, then you wasted a bit of time, no big deal. IF there is a problem then he can get a program going - early intervention is SO vital I can't even begin to tell you!!

If OTOH, you do nothing - (wait and see is often advised on here and it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong to advise that, wait and see when you have an asd concern flagged up is the worst thing you can ever do!) and he is fine, then great, no harm no foul BUT if you wait and see and there IS a problem, you have lost time that could have been spent helping him and you can never get that time back. It has been proven that the earlier they begin 'training' the better they do.

Really agree with Hecate. I get quite upset when people just post 'oh it's normal'. This behaviour could be an early indicator of something. I wouldn't just dismiss it and if it is something it is hugely important to intervene early as Hecate says.

I would be amazed if a GP would refer a 2yr old for assessment with a community paed on the basis that he lines his toys up.

He also has delayed speech and does not play as creatively as his sister. Mum is obviously concerned enough to post so I would say a good health visitor/GP would look at that.

My DD1 is four and STILL lines up most of her toys. They also queue to buy icecreams go to dentist etc. She is very into routine and order. Some kids are like that.

At age 2 she had about 10 words and then her speech took off about 2.4.

Sounds normal to me. Dont worry

Ok, just seen last few posts about how saying 'dont worry' can be annoying rather than reassuring Ignore my last post if you find it so....

I agree about early intervention but also it is pretty hard to assess at this early age although there are tools for infant toddler assessment.
hope you get a sympathetic GP

but is likely to be just a phase

The pointing, waving and language he has suggests fairly normal development. My ASD son has never lined up toys although it does get mentioned a lot in the autism files so I am sure it does happen - but it happens a lot in normal children too so it is not very useful as a diagnostic test. My ASD son was and is pretty good at pointing though and did exactly what you describe with his books so you never know. However from what you say, I would just keep an eye on his development for now. Although as everyone else has said, referrals take time so if you have lingering doubts, get on the lists now,

I wouldn't call up to 70 words at 2 delayed - my DS had about 10 and wasn't considered delayed. And is it really so uncommon for boys not to play with dolls/kithcens in imaginative play. He has started singing songs etc

Obviously if you are worried talk to GP/HV - would still be amazed if any of them think this is atypical of an average 2 yr old boy.

People don't post out of nowhere though. Most mothers have an intuition if something is wrong. Especially as this is not a first child.
I don't know if there is anything wrong, but what I and I think others are saying is that if there is it can make a HUGE difference to catch things early.

I'm not suggesting that she shouldn't check if she's worried and agree that early intervention might help. But mothers intuition isn't particularly reliable when you are comparing two of your children both of which who are within normal ranges but one was different/more advanced than the other.

I'd be interested to know what HV/GP says if you decide to mention it anotherbook.

Not sure if it's a worry or not, but DS does exactly the same - lines up his toys for ages, very exact, all facing the same way in a perfect straight line and will have a tantrum if it's on the sofa and the last doesn't fit etc. His speach came quite late aswell (compared to other toddlers I saw) but at 2.4 now he is picking up new words so quickly and has a great memory - we went for dinner one night at my mums and did the whole "cheers" thing with our glasses, and suddenly everytime DS has a drink he holds it up and says cheers! DS also tidys up, I think it's just a copying thing - today he has started bringing in leftover snacks and putting them in the bin, is very fussy about dirt on his hands... and he also went through a stage (still does it sometimes) where everything was "yellow!" when asked. It was the first colour he learnt as his bedroom is yellow, and I think he just gives it a guess first before really having to think and remember what other colour the item could be.

Hi Anotherbook
You sound a fab mum and your concerns for your son are a sign of how wonderful you are. We all compare our kids with siblings and others. Many kids line up toys but you know your sons whole character as to if this is a concern. As you may know for ASD there has to be development concerns in three key areas, communication, imagination and social skills. Therefore having language and using language can be two different things, what I mean is a child can have a good vocabulary but not be able to use it to communicate properly or use it only for thier needs. The lining toys up is a common concern is as this is a repititous behaviour that can be done with toys rather than ever playing with the toys in what we would deem a correct way, therefore without the imagination. The repititous behaviour can then become an obsession and cause great upset if line is broken, changed etc. I agree with KT14 and trust your instincts as to if you need to talk more with any professionals.

Thankyou everyone - varied views but mumsnet is good for lots of different views which is what I was asking for.

Am going to ask the health visitor (GP who is normally a good GP didn't want to refer for his language or lack of it more precisely).

Not sure if they will refer me to a paed.Can you say I want referral or go privately?

I don't want to be neurotic (I am already fussy remember!) and do feel I am overanalysing things somewhat but it is hard for me to differentiate between normal toddler and possible ASD behaviour.

The lining up is really quite recent and may be a phase.It is however quite frequent at the moment - balls,toys.

I think his language is improving each day.He did for instance see some cheese on the shelf today and said cheese pointing and the same with his cup.

He wasn't doing the lining up at the picnic to avoid the children there - he just seems to enjoy it.Once it is done to his satisfaction he will then go off and play with something else but he will not be happy if you move things but he is also like this if his sister takes his favourite ball or does something else not to his liking. He has lots of mini tantrums throughout the day generally.

He does interact well with his older sister and they play together -usually chasing and ball games.I have seen him smiling and trying to interact with children/adults he doesn't know.

However I know ASD is a spectrum and language disorders can be difficult to pick up so I appreciate your advice.

Cyberseraphim it is interesting what you said about the books pointing in a similar way - do you think I should mention this to the health visitor?

Kewcumber, I agree it can be difficult when comparing your children particularly as dd was such an easy baby/toddler (not so much now though) who always slept,never had tantrums (really!) and reached all milestones early - PFB!- and ds is the opposite although very very lovable.

Ah you see I have a DS just like your PSB so I don't think it is anything unusual (and DS has seen both a paed and the HV and they agree).

DS's language was far behind your DS and even so he is considered borderline for speech referral and we've agreed to leave it until he's 3 because he is progressing so much at the moment.

I was told that referral for speach therapy under 3 is rare because there's such a huge range of what is considered normal that its difficult to say that they aren't normal (IYSWIM) and SALT is so difficult to get on NHS that its generally reserved for when there is a clearer need. Your HV can refer if she thinks there is a problme but based on the criteria she showed me for DS's 30 month check I'd doubt you would fall into their criteria for referral. You can get private SALt and I know someone who did at a similar age and mostly they just went through the kind of advice you can find online, I think a private session is in the £100-£1250 range per session in our (expensive) area.

Three are some really helpful things you can do to improve his language if thats your main concern if you are interested.

I don;t know about referral to paed - you would have to talk to HV I assume they have criteria for suspected ASD which he would have to fall into to be referred.

Hi - I don't know if an HV would be able to advise or not, even an expert on autism might not know one way or the other if you mention the pointing issue. My DS used to point at everything in his A-Z books and wait for us to tell him the word. We could also say the word and he would point at it. He was very good, he knew all the breeds of cats and dogs at one point. However what he never did was to repeat the word or even attempt to. I would say though that at 2, he did not wave and did not have any language at that age so in our case, there were many other signs of ASD which don't seem to be there in your DS.

Kewcumber,

Would like to know your helpful things for language improvement.I like to be able to do things to help if possible.

I will ask the health visitor about the lining up etc. anyway but I suspect she wouldn't be too hot on ASD - really need a paed.However as you said not sure if she will refer - I suppose it depends on how he behaves when she sees him - maybe if he does a really impressive line across the room.

PSB Ds has always just been much harder work than dd.Maybe that's where my worries stem from.

I'll try to combine them into a usable format - do you accept CAT's?

not signed up for CATs - how do I do this /is there a fee? I'd appreciate it anyway.

no fee to accept CAT's just go onto My MUMSNET at the top of the page and make sure accept messages from members is ticked.

Done.Do you need my email address?

You can ask for a paediatrician referal but they will obviously want to know all your concerns to justify this. I should imagine you can go private also. It may be useful if you haven't already done so to write a list of all the things you notice or are concerned about. Remeber just like "typical" kids all kids on the spectrum are also different so don't be taken in that because he points or talks or smiles he cannot be on the spectrum as that is not true.