'how to talk' experts... what do i say to a 5yo when he goes around winding kids up and then comes running with the 'oh mama they hurt me, how could they' face?

[NappiesNoMore]

was wondering this over the w/end while camping at latitude festival. its mostly with his elder brother, who lives with his mum elsewhere most of the time but stays with us every other w/end and right now for about a week.

also have other related questions relating to this dynamic, but dunno if they need their own thread... help pls

In what way does he wind them up? Does he do it deliberately or is he just annoying?

thats the approach ive gone for sleepycat. was just wondering if i were missing some glaringly obvious and seriously psychological flaw in the argument meaning hed end up in prison/therapy for life and it would be All My Fault

i think, belgo, that hes trying to get attention and be loved/impress said big brother... but BB thinks hes annoying and shows it so he gets annoyed and hangs around waiting/pushing to be bullied so he can get him told off. its all a bit passive aggressive and tiresome. and id like to nip it in the bud if i can

I would sit him down quietly, on his own, when he is not doing it and you are both in a generally good mood and discuss it. You hint that there is more to it. I would imagine that he finds it difficult to be suddenly displaced from his position in the family by a part time older brother. I would try to give him better strategies for making it work. How does the older child get on/react?

By the time I had posted you had posted again. How old is BB?

Yeah, I would talk it through with him. Discuss why he's doing it with him.

And work on anticipating, and defusing, whatever dynamic brings this on ...

BB is 8. and yeah, hes always had ishoos with the new 'babies' coming along and 'replacing' him for his daddy (largely due, imo, to his mother saying such things to him ffs. tho i think shes better now, its a bit smeggin late imo)
he likes the youngest. but the eldest and middle one hes always kind of resented.
i think that that resentment is now morphing into general 'normal' BB annoyance and irritation with LB's...

but what do i say in the discussion NQC? im at a loss to know what to tell him other than 'dont do that' which he doesnt listen to.

I have to agree with sleepycat and nip it in the bud. My ds has had so many problems in the last year this year with a boy who is 12.
I have listened to his mum tell me for years how her poor son is bullied, he always forgets to tell her what he wound up or even attacked the other child first.
This year he started on my ds and it's been so difficult, because this kid just doesn't learn. Some of the things he is now doing are dangerous, like playing with train doors.He has even been in serious trouble at school this year and he still hasn't learnt.

If BB was older I think it would be easier because he would probably be more tolerant-as he is with the youngest. I should think it is difficult from both sides. I should find things to do that they all like (or particularly BB and the 5 yr old) and try and get them having fun together. If BB is an only child with his mother he is going to find it difficult to fit into a family at weekends. I would talk to BB on his own and say how much LB looks up to him- make him feel important.

ds has a friend "R" almost 5 who specialises in deliberately goading ds and others into a state of irritation/distress then comes running to the host parent eg on a playdate, telling tales "he pushed me" "he won't share the truck, that's mean isn't it are you going to tell him off I'm the guest" etc etc. usually ds or the other children have been reining in their intolerance re this for as long as possible, then one final act of aggression/over assertion tips them over and at that point they finally stop sharing with R/stop joining in with R's bossy games and r comes complaining...

my tactic has been to stop inviting R over for a while but I'm hoping to find a way of dealing with it better so he just behaves a bit less badly in my home ! (And my ds isn't a pfb; he's my 4th so I've seen such a lot of 4-5 yo behaviour from my dcs and guests to think that goading your friends like this needs to be stopped if possible.

Anyone ??

Ok, for the discussion, the points I would hit are:

1. make DS aware he is winding up this child - he is probably not doing it consciously. He doesn't know he's doing it, and he certainly doesn't know why.

1. talk about how he's trying to get this child's attention, but is ending up with bad attention.

1. talk about ways to get good attention

1. talk about being aware of how he's feeling right when he winds kids up, so he can notice that feeling in future and stop hismelf

Lots of this may be way above your DS's competency. But then it comes down to you - you need to spot when he's getting into this behaviour and stop him before it goes wrong - ideally stop him before it properly starts.

Partaria, your options are more limited - I think real correction needs to come from the mum. I doubt R knows what he's doing, at least consciously.

I wonder if the need to goad comes out of anxiety, social incompetance, wanting attention, a mix of all of these?

NQC I don't know why r does this but I'm not the only parent to find it v.trying as r has (short) intervals of being good company, which is i suppose why any invitations to him have been issued at all ! I know this behaviour isn't uncommon with almost 5 year olds, but with r it's just so full on. You're right about correction needing to come from parents though; i fear if i was totally frank with him and clearly laid out my expectations for his behaviour while under my charge, he'd just resist (though I'm sure he'd understand as his button pressing skills aren't lacking ).

ds used to be a little like this. He would latch onto (usually) older kids who would have no interest in playing with him, and just go on and on trying to be in their games. At soft play places it sometimes would end up with them throwing balls at him until he finally stopped (and yes he was usually upset at this point). School picked it up too, and introduced lots of activities (on the advice of the social communication expert) to help with friendships and playing. After a little while he started to form solid friendships, and gained a little gang of like minded friends. Now we have moved and it has started to be a problem again. I think part of it is that making friends and playing nicely comes easier to some children than others. The occasional big brother is a more difficult issue (we have something similar with a cousin, but now they are older the cousin is better at telling him he's busy and locking himself away whilst tempers cam down). As well as the talking can you supervise play more - set them activities to do together (and apart too!), and generally try being more directive about how they interact?

partaria, you can say to him, that if he wants to come play with your kids, he needs to change his behaviour.

How well do you get on with his parents? These sorts of problems are worth discussing with parents when you can, but of course the parents have to be like-minded ...