Help me with DS2 who refuses to get dressed

[MummyDoIt]

Every morning we have the same argument. DS1 gets up and dresses himself for school, no problem. DS2 (aged 4) always makes a big fuss. Says he doesn't want to get dressed, refuses to take off his own pyjamas. Nine times out of ten it ends up with me forcibly removing them and him screaming. It gets the day off to such a bad start, with us all running late, DS2 in a temper and me completely stressed out. Plus the screaming is disturbing DH and I can't have that (some mornings, he's so bad, he's probably disturbing half the street as well). My usual method of disciplining him is to tell him I'll take away pocket money which works well at any other time of the day but, first thing in the morning, he takes absolutely no notice. Just screams. Any help gratefully accepted. I'm beginning to dread getting up because I know I'll have this little scene to get through.

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You don't get to do anything until you are dressed - no breakfast, no tv, no anything - you will stay in your bedroom until you are dressed - and you will be ignored

arrange with a friend to pick up DS1 and take him to school for a couple of mornings

DS2 doesn't eat, play, read or do anything until he has dressed himself - you meanwhile are downstairs drinking coffee and reading totally unperturbed

I'd give it a day, 3 at the most

I'm with the ignorers.
Pretend you can't even see him until he's dressed.
And cut a big bumhole in his pyjamas. He won't enjoy the walk to school with a draft around his nethers.

I just think it's best to approach things in other ways sometimes in order to avoid power struggles. There is enough REAL important stuff, eg safety, crossing roads, not touching the fire, where parents just have to assert the rules; other than that why not have some fun and not approach life like you are permanently sucking a lemon or running a borstal

The fun, make it a game approach to dressing will see you through the awkward phase and by the time the phase it's over they are in a good routine of dressing - problem solved, and without endless screaming or having to just impose your will on the child; which in the long run, doesn't teach them ANYTHING other than that stronger/bigger/more powerful people can make you do stuff

Nursejo I strongly disagree with you, to a young child one rule is not much the same as another, and they will work out that 'mummy will let them do this, but not let them do that' because they are intelligent capable human beings.

I'm all for giving children more control over their own lives. Rules are only necessary to keep a child safe and healthy.

PMSL at WanderingTrolley - am loving the hole in PJ's - might give that a go with my ds

lol see I disagree with that on so many levels!

I for one do not want to bring my DS up to simply accept rules and live by them without question. I want him to question everything, and make his own mind up. Living by rules without ever questioning them is a recipe for disaster imho. Obviously you will disagree with that but that's what makes for an interesting world! Would be boring if we where all the same.

Your parenting sounds authoritarian. Personally I couldn't parent like that, but I don't just accept rules either, and the fact that something is against the law isn't enough to stop me doing it. Nothing would eveer change in the world if we all just accepted rules without question.

i agree with you OvermyDeadBody - Where would we be if we never questioned anything? We'd all still be domestic slaves with no vote for a start . . . .
My kids are given an explanation for why they are not allowed to do certain things and where possible a demonstration i.e. Don't touch the oven wasn't enough for curious minds so I waited until it had cooled a little and let them (under strict supervision) touch it quickly. They have never been near it since. If I say hot to anything they know what hot means. But sometimes I do want them to obey without question and immediately for unforseen circumstances. If something suddenly careens toward them, or them towards something. I want STOP or MOVE to be obeyed without thought, which is why I try not to yell or tell all the time so that they instantly know the difference.
It is a bloody hard job this parenting. We all do it differently I suppose.

i don't think you have to do the equivalent of hitting them in the face with a baseball bat type rules

By following a less confrontational approach you are still instilling in them the social norm of dressing each day but you're doing it in an age appropriate way and in a way that is not about simply imposing rules for the sake of it. By the time they are just a bit older they understand about dressing and don't want to go out undressed.

I totally agree that children need boundaries - but there is a more imaginative way to get there than just "I am the adult and what I say goes"; from under 2 my ds would understand that my 'strong' NO or HOT or something, was there to be obeyed. Other rules can be put in in other ways not just 'no arguments, end of story'.

You are teaching children FAR more to teach them that their acts have consequences and therefore they have a choice; than just to teach them do as I say, no arguments, end of story

It might be more convenient for the parent but it's not teaching them much

Wow, there is some real food for thought here. Some good advice, like making dressing a game or a race, we've tried already. No success. A lot of it is down to the individual child. DS2 can be quite headstrong and won't be swayed once his mind is made up. That's why I believe the social consequences of going out in PJs - told of by teacher, laughed at by other children - would have no effect because he simply would not care.

I am definitely going to try ignoring him until he is dressed. No breakfast, no television, no attention until he does as he is asked (and I will ask calmly, with no shouting). I may have to get us all up early to make sure his stubbornness doesn't make us late as I'm fairly sure he won't cave in within minutes but I'm going to give it a go.

You say argue, I say debate.

I don't think people should be respected simply because of their place in society. I hope my DS always has the confidence to challenge authority and ask "why". From a young age he's known he always ahs the riht to say no, ask qustions, and say if he thinks something is unfair.

Mummydoit, I had loads of problems getting DS to get dressed when he was 3.6 to nearly 5. He had to dress because he was going to preschool.

Tried sticker charts, various games etc. All worked for a few weeks, then he lost interest and it was back to square 1.

He is 5 now and we have finally got it figured out. He now truly understands that by getting ready quickly he has time to play before leaving for school.

Just to give you hope.

I'm with Parachutes first off (on page 1) - have you tried letting him choose his own clothes (or say, 1of 3 tops etc)? If he is an independent child he might just appreciate this.
Am also with the others on the taking him to nursery in his PJs (love the hole in the bum idea . I have had to threaten this once or twice with DS2 and it worked wonders - especially if it is not something you would normally do (he will know this) so if you actually follow through with it, he probably won't push it more than once.

nursejo I think it's you who are taking stuff out of context - I was saying for instance that children at VERY young can understand that when mum says stop, wait, no etc in a certain tone of voice that is to do with safety and they will stop.

Other things can be approached with negotiating/getting round the issue/talking to them about the consequence of their choices in order to help them learn to reason well.

This does not mean they will misbehave in school or question every single rule and expect parents to back them up. It's not the same thing at all. Indeed school do not nowadays thankfully take the approach of 'do as i say end of story', they give positive encouragement and reinforcements and engage the children in ways that are age appropriate. Rules are explained and agreed upon WITH the children - my ds and all his peers signed a class charter.

I really think it's odd to be offended at being called authoritarian when you say 'I'm in charge, no arguments, end of story'!

Nursejo on Mon 02-Jun-08 19:52:03
"But teaching children to question certain rules shows a complete disregard for "authority" or for people that should be respected just for their place in society such as Teachers/Police.

You are taking so much out of context.
When your DC disregard a rule at school,and "question" the teacher,I'm sure you'll applaud if thats what you believe.

IMO thats teaching a child to be disrespectful,disregarding those that have the right to make rules and guidelines that are in their best interests,and for their safety.

I don't want my 3 yr old to say "why" when I say "Stop" or "Wait"."

Maybe it's because I'm an academic and therefore have spent my life questioning the opinions of the people I respect most - but I really don't see why asking 'why' is the same as disobedience or lack of respect.

Dd, who has always been extremely verbal, has questioned my decisions and opinions since she was 2 - she still knows I am not going to give in if it comes to a power struggle. But she is allowed to express an opinion.

I feel secure enough in my parental authority to want a child that is interested enough to ask 'why'- it's an ideal teaching situation. I'd have been quite sad if she had never been interested in knowing the whys of life around her.

It has not meant we have got stuck in endless arguments- I can still tell her to get a move on. And she knew from an early age to recognise the tone of voice that meant 'instant obedience'(e.g. in a dangerous situation). She has never been in trouble at school. But teachers have frequently commented on how mature and well informed she is.

As far as I can see, there is no contradiction in being proud of the child that asks questions and firmly propelling same child in the direction he is meant to go.

And in the long run- over the teenage years- teaching them to question authority (at the same time as sticking to the rules) is something we have to do; how else can they be trusted with the vote at 18?

Dd at 11 knows that teachers are not infallible. She knows that some of the information they give out may be wrong (she reads avidly so can't help noticing this). She has had the misfortune to encounter discrimination at school, so she knows not all people in authority are not necessarily well informed or well intentioned. To that extent she does question authority. But she is also mature enough to see that this does not allow her to misbehave and make other people unhappy; in fact, being allowed to see people in authority as fallible human beings makes it easier for her to understand that they too have feelings that must be respected. So I don't feel letting her ask a few questions at the age of 3 has really raised a potential troublemaker.

Really good post cory

I can assure you Nursejo that my dd was an extremely headstrong child. (ds was a little sweetie). But I was still bigger and stronger and the person with the credit card, so there was no chance that I wouldn't get my way in the end. I could afford for her to express her feelings.

My point is still that you can reinforce discipline at the same time as allowing questioning.

IME the parents who come across as really weak (and whose children play up a lot) are the ones who are constantly on the lookout for threats to their authority and taking everything personally. A more confident adult can afford a less suspicious attitude- and children are impressed by confidence.

yes nursejo I would protest at you imagining that other parents who have a different approach, have that approach because their cihldren have been easier!

Some of us have worked DAMN hard at using a non-authoritarian approach with VERY headstrong children. My mum for instance has told me that my one ds is WAY harder work than she ever had when she had me and my brother with just a year between us.

It's not about having it easier. it's about your approach.

I do agree that some parents do not impose boundaries or give enough guidance; but that is way, way removed from the approach I (and it sounds like Cory too) have implemented which is more about thinking your way round individual situations and trusting the child; not using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

err, yes they would nursejo. the answer to 'why' doesn't need to be 'I said so' it could better be 'because if you all carry on like that someone will get hurt'.....then yes, the children listen to that, understand the sense of it and decide to get off. OR, just as likely they decide they are prepared to take that risk! so as the parent then you can put in the boundary either by diverting them onto something they CAN do, or by explaining that they will lose some treat, or go home etc if they carry on.

'because i said so' is easier for the parent but I still believe it teaches the child nothing and does nothing for your long term relationship with them

I could just as well huff off for being told that I only am able to have a different approach because my child is easy it's all in a day's mumsnetting