Is there something 'wrong' with him?

[SanAndreas]

Please help!

My ds is almost 9 and has always been quite a character. I would describe him as lively and quite boisterous, really a typical lad i suppose.

I would say we have spoilt him a lot really and perhaps not always been consistent with discipline, although we are not complete pushovers.

Generally, at home he is fine, although we do tend to have to repeat ourselves when asking him to do things. Its almost that he does stuff we he fancies it rather than when we tell him sometimes.

The main problem though is school. Lately he has been repeatedly in trouble for certain things. Mainly being slightly disruptive as in talking in class and having to be separated. We have not been unduly worried about this. Also he seems to be hanging around with a couple of trouble makers and doing stuff he shouldnt, calling kids names, wandering into the infant playground, chucking paper towels around the loo etc. Again, i wouldnt be that worried, except for the fact he has been called into see the head teacher almost every wk. We go through his silly behaviour and how we are not happy and that he must stay out of trouble only for him to do the same thing within a few days.

Im at my wits end. We ahve taken almost everything off him. TV etc and it doesnt seem to be sinking in. Im also aware that he will soon have nothing left to work towards as he has no sigans of getting stuff back

The final straw was last wk when the head said maybe i should see the GP TO rule out a behaviour problem as he does not seem to be learning from his mistakes at all.

This has really upset me. Does anyone have any thoughts. Does he sound like he is is being naughty or have a problem. It really is making me feel ill as i always though he was just a very silly boy, nothing more.

I agree onward. Home ed would not be a possibuilty at all though and i am reluctant to change schools.

He has been lovely so far today!

I think some of the problem here is the definition of "a bit silly". I honestly think that big kids going into the infant playground if they are not allowed, throwing paper towels round the loo, throwing stones and calling other children names goes beyond a bit silly - and I would expect the school to be a bit tougher on this sort of behaviour. He's 9 - he's not a baby. The school does seem to be washing its hands of this a bit and expecting you to sort it out. ~Maybe you need to discuss a joint plan with the school - joined up disipline if you like. And I do think you need to be a bit firmer - sorry. It's hard when firm isn't your style, isn't it!

I can be firm! But im sick of always seeming to be telling him off or taking stuff off him. I love doing nice things with him but lately its all no, no, no to everything. Im conscious he wont have anything to work towards.

Dp has had enough, hes all for sending him to his room after school every day until he learns his lesson and emptying it of all toys. I dont blame him for feeling like that. I just cannot believe that after all that has happened at school recently that he would be so damned stupid to do yet another thing!

The school are good, but what the hell can i do after i have dropped him off. Im not there physically to sort him out.

I agree it is going beyond silly, but does it suggest a big behaviour problem?

As far as i see when i go out, boys are generally horrible compared to girls(!) and when i went to school there were always boys doing daft stuff and playing up. He isnt fighting, swearing smashing things up or being rude to teachers! Im just wondering where normal boyish behaviour ends and a problem takes over. Its so hard.

SanAndreas, I might have missed it but have you ruled out taking him to the GP? As you might (only might, though!) get some more good advice.

My ds (who was 9 in April) has some similarities to yours - specifically the (very hard to comprehend, almost weird-feeling) failure to learn from experience. I describe it to myself as him missing a kind of feedback instinct - ie, the one that should automatically kick in to tell you not to do something again when last time it got you in hot water. My ds also has the apparent oblivious nature where he doesn't seem to massively care (or just forgets?) about the sanctions. And as for getting ready in his own time ........... let's just say I understand.

In a way it's easier for us to go down the path of thinking there's something "up" (rather than something "wrong") with my ds, as we also have a younger dd who is completely on the ball. We try to do very steady & consistent parenting with both of them, & one of the criteria for investigating further is of course when a child's behaviour is significantly worse than the parenting he/she is getting would indicate.

What I am getting at is that sometimes you can do your absolute level best at parenting, but a child just is, in some way, more difficult to reach.

Your GP may not be able to give you any kind of technical term for why your son is behaving as he is (we don't have any for my ds) but I've found that the more advice I can gather in (from anyone) the better things go. It gives me perspective, options for strategies, contact with other people in same boat, etc.

PS - my ds has been at a specialist school for the last year & half, where they've been explicitly teaching him things like social skills - ie, things that other children pick up instinctively but he seems not to be able to - and he is much better than he was. You might want to try to approach your ds by treating him as if he needs the same sort of explicit teaching - have you heard of "social stories"?

(Sorry for long post - I just thought this might be useful.)

My DH teaches year 5 and I have heard a lot about the behaviour of boys, girls and children in general. Boys can be very sensible and thoughtful and girls can be very silly. Being a boy doesn't give him carte blanche to act like this. Do you think you might be sending him the message that it is ok for him to be silly/horrible because he is a boy and can't help it? Not consciously in those exact words but YSWIM?

Your DS isn't fighting and smashing things up yet but it could easily become that if he can't control his behaviour or respect authority.

I know I am repeating myself but I do think you need to get together with the school to resolve this together, home and school behaviour as one issue. If they aren't interested then you need to consider changing schools even though it would be a PITA.

Thanks both of you.

I will speak to the head again this wk(if anything happens) to see a better way we can work together. Im worried about changing schools in case the same things happen again and he will have an even worse reputation.

Bink the characteristics you have talked about with your ds describe my ds exactly. Not caring or seemingly to 'forget'. Exactly spot on.

Hope your talk with the head goes well

cheers

Yes, all the best SA!

I wanted to add something that a Dr pointed out re my ds, & was such a useful way of seeing his difficulties clearly. The Dr asked ds what sort of misbehaving ds did at school - and, despite really wanting to explain, ds just couldn't give a concrete example, all he could do was say "being silly". Compare that with your average toddler, who can & will (however shame-facedly & self-justifying) give you the specifics ("I threw some sand at Sally but it was because she snatched the spade") - let alone with your average 9yo.

The Dr said ds's inability to recount a specific incident meant that, at some level, he didn't quite understand the whole picture. Hence the need for the explicit spelling-out approach.

Has he always been like this or only recently?

Have there been any changes in his life like bereavement or moving house? that could be affecting him?

Does he have many friends out of school or is he bored/lonely.

I loved the advice given to you by Onwards, and would only add that I would throw my everything into finding him an all consuming hobby that he is passionate about and that might introduce him to some young positive role models as well as teach him discipline.

Sailing, rock climbing, air cadets, surfing, sealed knot, art, photography, Something that he can do really well to increase his self esteem which must be on the floor.

I think the school sound pretty hopeless. If they have concerns about his behaviour at school they should call in the Ed Psych. After all, he's better at home so why suggest you see the GP...I think I would ask the Head to get the Ed Psych in to assess him, if they're that worried. And if they're not that worried, then the school need to be providing more positive re-inforcement/stronger consequences.

He sounds immature for his age - some kids are, it's just one of those things.

I think being punished at home for stuff at school needs to stop right now if I'm honest. I think it's so counterproductive and just makes kids feel victimised and harrassed and I tihnk it could even be adding to his silly behaviour.

Work with the school so that he knows you support what THEY do in terms of consequences/positive stuff but don't punish at home for stuff that's already been dealt with. Home is home and his treats, or not, should depend on home behaviour ONLY imo.

TBH though the school sound as if they are too weak; if he's properly supervised, he shouldn't be able to get into the infant playground etc. Obviously it would be better if he behaved more sensibly but the school should have tough and robust procedures in place that squash this sort of behaviour. It is possible.

Hmmm, I'm a teacher, and I'm not sure this is totally to do with how you treat him re discipline etc. It is easy to say that, BUT if you are generally supportive of him and his education then this usually shows up in the child. I was not always consistant with my ds at times (long story) but he has never behaved like this. Your ds may be the sort of child who needs consistent discipline, but I don't think this is the whole story.

In my 13 years of teaching experience I have come across a lot of boys who misbehave. Usually it IS something to do with parental input or lack of it. It is not often a child misbehaves who has strong parents behind him, but it can happen. However when it does happen SEN are usually involved. There may be something driving his behaviour. I am not trying to make excuses for it, BUT it does sound as if you need some help with him.

I would ask the school to do an assessment on him, and if they refuse get one done yourself privately you KNOW what you are dealing with and have a baseline to go on.

Has he always been like this or has this just started to happen lately? If he has always been this way, it should have been picked up on at the school much earlier, and support should have been put in place.

I deal with them all and some are just plain naughty and full of devilment, but they are few and far between.

Ooh, have just rememebered that awful programme "Honey we're kiling the kids" (Is that right?)

Anyway, she was always suggesting that parents spend more time doing stuff with their kids outside the house, and sharing activities.

You said you enjoy doing this sort of stuff with your ds, could you do more of it, rather than trying to be always on his back. This gives you chance to back off and just enjoy being together

Ooh, have just rememebered that awful programme "Honey we're kiling the kids" (Is that right?)

Anyway, she was always suggesting that parents spend more time doing stuff with their kids outside the house, and sharing activities.

You said you enjoy doing this sort of stuff with your ds, could you do more of it, rather than trying to be always on his back. This gives you chance to back off and just enjoy being together

ds1 constantly does things he shouldn't at school and at home - he's very impulsive and he really struggles with the whole 'learning from experience' thing - it doesn't matter how many times he's got into trouble for something before, when he's in the throes of excitement/anger he just can't seem to access the bit of his brain which should be screaming 'this is a really bad idea' at him

we have a sort of traffic light system at home and at school to try to head off some of the worst behaviour - at home I say 'stop and think' and at school he has two warnings and then he's out of the class. Sometimes this works, but other times nothing seems to reach him

we took him out of his previous school at the end of y5 as he'd got into a terribly negative spiral - he (and I suspect your son too) had the attitude of 'might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb' and as soon as the punishments started, instead of stopping him it seemed to push him into ever deteriorating behaviour

we did go to the gp about his behaviour, partly on the advice of his nursery teacher who said that if we couldn't give schools a medical reason for the way he (sometimes) behaved, that he would be wrongly labelled as being simply naughty

he has a real mish-mash of a diagnosis, but most importantly he has a statement which means that he can get lots of extra help at school - not with academic work as he's very bright, but with organising himself and stuff like reading subtle social cues to help him moderate his behaviour

we have regular meetings with the psychologist to help us (and school) finetune tactics, but basically he tells us we're doing all the right things and some children are just much, much harder to deal with

certainly from our experience, ds responds much better to positive reinforcement than punishment - trying to foresee potential flashpoints/opportunities for silliness helps too as it's often easier to head situations off before they happen

sorry have rambled because I'm tired and should be in bed ....

Fizzbuzz - I was on this thread earlier as my son could be the DS of SanAndreas.

Was golden boy at Nursery, went slightly downhill in reception, had a really bad year in Yr1, fantastic year in Yr2, going downhill in Yr3.

He is on a behaviour report system at the moment whereby they fill in the card day by day and he brings it home and we sign and send back. Previous to this in Yr1 we had meetings with the head and had a behaviour support specialist go in and assess who basically said he was a spirited boy who seemed to be the scapegoat for a lot of things that went on and because perhaps he had done things previously, he just held his hand up and said yep I am guilty even though on many occasions he was not the culprit.

DS2 at home does his own thing. We speak to him, ground him or ban him from the games console or computer, then once the ban is lifted then it is business as usual. For example, last night was the first night he was allowed out. He has been taking it upon himself to leave the street, should not go past a particular point (we do live in a village) and go call on various friends who live on the other side of the village - we then have to go look for him. So, last night playing outside our house with other children, then DS2 no longer there. We get a phonecall from someone right at the top of the street up a culdesac (where he is not allowed) to say DS2 is here playing he has asked me to ring you to say where he is.

When he came back I said why did you go to that house and he said but I got M's dad to ring you to say where I was. He cannot seem to grasp the idea he is supposed to ask first.

The school he is at in our village has about 30 children to a class. We know he works well in a small group as the school have confirmed this. Do you think it would be worthwhile moving him to another school? There are two schools nearby in other villages - one has 50 children to the whole school and the other has 82 to the school.

My husband is not sure about moving him. I think he is worried that he will still carry on doing what he is doing.

How do we go about moving him? I know we need to make an appointment with the Head, but at the meeting do we actually have to go into full detail about what is happening?

The school have just done an IP for DS2 and he has started to go out of class for extra work.

Sorry if this is long winded, but we are getting to the end of the road. By the way, we have had no trouble with DS1 at the same school or with his behaviour.

I have just spoken to our Head who has just reassured me that there is still a long way to go yet on trying to sort his "silly" behaviour out and for DH and I not to worry.

She said he is not a nasty boy but just very silly and immature.

If things do not improve with having the behaviour report card in place, she said they will look into doing other things and getting the behaviour support teacher back in.

I'm glad you had a positive rsponse - do you feel that the plan they have is going to be effective?

I hope so. In Yr2 he had a fantastic year and was not sent to see the Head once, so hopefully we can get some of this good behaviour back.

It is just knowing how to go about it. We cannot be bad parents as DS1 turned out ok with no problems whatsoever and we do not dole out different parenting skills to him.

Gosh, I don't know...If he is better in small groups, then I suppose you could consider it, but most kids are if they need special attention.

If he is only in Y3, I would give him more of a chance tbh. Moving should really be the last option as it may upset him more. As he seems uppy downy rather than continouously difficult he may improve.

Behaviour suport in class seems a better option to me. However I think you should ask for a proper assessment on him from an ed psych. the school may refuse but by law you are entitled to it, but you may have to have it done privately. It may make all the difference to you. Is he very clever at all?

Bellavista don't beat yourself up about parenting. As a teacher I often see whole familes of kids,who will all behave apart from one random sibling.

It happens all the time, but the parents don't treat them any differently, so it is not always down to parenting. Some children are just born like that I think. It puzzles us as teachers as much as the parents.

What was your ds like as a baby or toddler? My ds (now 14) had a friend when he was 2 or 3 who used to have terrible tantrums and be really out of control. This went on until secondary school when he was diagnosed with ADHD, yet his elder brother was nothing like him. Both had the same parents............

He was a perfect baby until the day he turned one, then it went downhill.

Put locks on the fridge door - he would break them off.

He was into everything and at mums and tots all the mums would think he was just so adorable but he would be trying to climb all the time and really keep me on my toes.

Managed to get scissors (from high up which involves standing on worksurface) to cut his hair, my venetian blinds etc.

Managed to get a box of matches which again are out of sight and out of reach, he decided one morning when we were in bed (this is quite recent) to set alight my display candles.

Our fault for not realising he had taken the keys and opened the garage door - he poured paint into the petrol lawnmower - again the paint is high up on a shelf and he got himself things to stand on to reach it.

I try to share out asking the boys to do things - but DS2 just takes over and poor DS1 doesn't get a look in.

My best friend mentioned last time we saw her that DS1 does not get a chance to talk and answer any questions directed at him because DS2 just jumps in and does it.

The thing is he really is a lovable boy and I know he does have feelings even if he has this I don't care attitude - DS1 broke his arm a couple of weeks ago and DS2 was upset about it.

It is just like he has been here before though in another life. He is bright in many ways, we have a greenhouse and he helps DH with the seeds and growing the veg and fruit and he is a mind of info on this. I struggled to put the seats down in the back of my car once and he said don't worry I will do it and sure enough job done in a second.

The Head has said she will give me an update next Monday on how she thinks this weeks behaviour has gone.

Thank you for your input, it really helps to see and read the wise words of others.

Thanks everyone ive been working past few days and couldnt get on mumsnet.

My ds sounds like mims son and bella's.

He has always been a bit of a character all of his life although he didnt do stuff like bella's ds as a baby.

He has been in'trouble' really since starting reception, but it was really just distracting others etc. THe school have never really made it an issue.

Despite the behaviour chart this wk and promises not to get in troble at school he has done something again. i recieved a phone call from ther school to say he had been encouraging other kids to do stuff they shouldnt.

I am really unsure of what to do when i pick him up. The school dealt with it by making him stay in at playtime/lunch but what should i do.

The poster that said i shouldnt punish him again, well im kind of inclined to agree in a way, except im sure he is not a bit bothered about staying in a t school. Dp wants to take everything off him tonight(tv etc ).We have decided to work on a daily basis with punishment. And only take things off him for a day. Dp had agreed but i think he thinks its a bit 'soft' and a day isnt long enough.

He does have a hobby, he goes to football twice a wk and its footy tonight. I dont know whether to let him go or not? If he goes i feel he will not care about being punished at school or having his things taken away because he still has footy. Im just confused.

HE DOESNT HAVE A SELF ESTEEM PROBLEM sorry about capitals! He can be fine, but then forgets himself.

Sorry about all the typing errors, im doing six different things at once!