At my wits end with ds (19 months) and his non-sleeping - what am I doing wrong? What can I do instead?

[MuffinMclay]

Apart from the first 3 months when he never slept, ds has been a pretty good sleeper, doing 7pm-7am and, until very recently, a 2 hour nap in the day (provided we are at home - won't sleep elsewhere).

In the past couple of weeks it has all gone horribly wrong. He falls asleep at 7pm, but is waking at 5am (4am today), ready to start the day. He is refusing to nap at all most days (unless he falls asleep in the car, and then I transfer him to bed when we get home). Then he is really tired and grumpy in the day (as am I), but refuses to sleep.

Apart from the fact that I'm not getting enough sleep, and am starting to lose the plot, I feel awful about the noise he is making. We have screaming and tantrums from first thing, and I'm sure my neighbour must be disturbed by it.

I have to get this sorted out before number 2 arrives, but don't know what to do at all.

our ds (also 19) goe sthrough phases like this. recently he started waking at about 4.30/5am and wouldn't go back to sleep. I don't really do controlled crying but got so fed up with being up at the crack of dawn that i just started putting him back to bed, telling him it was still night-time and leaving the room. i'd go back in when he started really crying (rather than screaming because he was angry that i'd dared to leave him) and tell him the same thing. after a few nights he seemed to give him and is now sleeping through til about 6.30 most days.

not sure if that's much help but i think the idea is basically to be consistent

I experienced the early waking too and my solution was to push bed time with an hour, so he has his bath at 7:30 and bed by 8. He still wakes at 7:00 but alot better than 5!

I think we solved early waking (for now!) by adding extra layers - could he be cold now the weather is getting more wintry? Ds used to go to bed in pyjamas and a 2.5 tog sleeping bag and wake up at 5am. He's now in a long sleeved vest, cotton sleepsuit and 2.5 tog sleeping bag with an extra blanket if it feels cold when we go up to bed - I thought this seemed pretty excessive but he hasn't woken before 6am since. Touch wood

Also I think when toddlers get overtired they get into a terrible cycle of not sleeping well that is hard to break. I have a sleep book that suggests the most important thing for a child with sleep problems is that they have a regular nap, doesn't matter where to begin with. If work/childcare/sanity etc permits, maybe you could just try driving him round for an hour at the same time each day for a few days and see if you can get him back into the swing of napping.

Thank you. All useful ideas. I do feel like he has got into a bad sleeping cycle and needs the daytime naps back on track in order to get the nights on track. I'd be willing (if not happy) to give up the daytime naps if I thought he'd sleep better at night, but I feel that he still needs them. He looks so tired and is yawning and rubbing his eyes all the time.

Tonight isn't a great night to experiment with things. I have 4 extra children staying and they are all disturing each other.

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Feeling for you very much Muffin. To add my twopenceworth, I'd say he is too young to give up napping during the day, although he probably now just needs 1 longish nap early afternoon. When my ds gave up his afternoon nap I was horrified because he seemed so young (he'd just turned two, whereas my older child happily napped until she'd just turned three). But I would say he was young to give up daytime naps and at 19 months I am sure your son still needs it.

If you do get him to nap in the early afternoon, make sure you are fairly physically active after - take him for a toddle, even if just round the block, and get him really tired for night time. He may not need to go to bed til 8pm, but surely that til, say, 6am is better than what you've got at the moment?

Sounds like his not napping is part of the whole thing. With dd (17 months) bad night usually equals bad naps.

She was horrid for 6 months at night-truly horrendous. I did Baby Whisperer stuff, which was brilliant.

Eg, when she woke up, went in, lay her down, patted her, said night night and left room. She cried, I went straight back in, and carried on in same manner going straight back in, until she stopped crying...so you never leave them to cry, but they get the message.

It was no more tiring than been up every night anyway. It took 2 weeks, but she is fantastic now, and has been for about 2 or 3 months.

You have to break the pattern hth

Another horrific night. Ds was awake and screaming (because I wouldn't turn on lights and play) from 4.30. I was so conscious of disturbing the other 4, so couldn't ride out the screaming. Dh fled to work at 5 to get away from the noise.

We have a really busy day today today, which might wear him out for tonight.

You have my absolute sympathy but I cant offer any practical help. I have a 3 year old DS who has never slept through the night. We treated him exactly the same as DD (4) who sleeps a full 12 hours and has done since 3 months. He screams and screams, bangs on the door and wakes whole house upat least 3 times a night. Last night it was 6 times.

Am putting him in nursery in January in the hopes he will get worn out. He hasnt had a daytime sleep since he turned 2 and if he drops off in the buggy in the afternoon he wont go to sleep till gone 9pm at night. We have tried everything and are just getting through it now.

It made me very depressed for a long time. I am now on ad and I find that makes the situation so much more bearable. The sleep clinic we tried said we would have to ride it out. He wont always be like this. If he had been my first he would have been an nly child. DCs are 4 and 3 now. DH had the snip before DS was 6 months old!!!!

Lots of sympathy (I have a waking-up-usually-twice-in-the-night 19mth old dd myself!)

will he come and lie in bed with you?

I am feeling v sick (first trimester) and can't bear to be upright at 5am in the morning - thankfully dd is happy for me to come in bed with her, and when it is after dh has got up for work (after 6.30am) we go to my room and I switch the telly in our bedroom on (said I would never have a telly in a bedroom ) and she chills out watching telly with a bottle of milk while I doze til about 8.30am.

Not necessarily possible with more than one and probably not a long-term solution, granted, but it saves my sanity right now!

You have to do whats best for you and your family at that time and not worry too much about whats he 'experts' say. You have enoug on your plate. I would have had DS in my bed but he screamed there too. At least when he is in own room there is a wall to muffle the noise!.

Agree with Monkeybutler that you have to do whatever is best for you and your family.
Could you get up with him for an hour when he wakes? We found this helped with some of ours. Amongst other things I would take them downstairs so that they didn't disturb anyone else. Sit with them for a while, give them something to eat (usually a weetabix) and they would normally be ready to nod back off. I found it's a lot easier and relaxed all round if you look at it as though you are on shift work.

No, he won't come into bed with me. He just wants to play. There's some advantage in trying to keep him in his room, as it doesn't adjoin anyone, so the noise should be muffled at least.

But he won't let me get into bed with him (starts hitting and kicking me). We tried a stairgate across his door, but he can open it.

Got to dash, but I need to come up with a strategy for tonight later. Fortunately all the bonus children have gone home now, so I only have to deal with him tonight.

tie that stairgate shut. Make him have a nap[ this afternoon, even if you have to drive him around, and let him sleep as much as he wants.

I would try dosing with Calpol, because it is a 'teething' sort of age, and calpol only stops pain, it doesn't make them sleep.

Make him have a nap every single day straight after lunch, and let him sleep until he wakes naturally from it. Ds2 is 20 months, and if he doesn't get a good nap, he doesn't sleep well at night, and he gets trapped in this vicious circle.

Use duct tape if you have to - presumably you can climb over it, and he can't!

Get some teething granules, it could be abit of teething. You get them from Boots, they do their own, or 'Nelson's' make from health shops. Give him a sachet on a spoon, it dissolves straight on the tongue. Just a natural thing to calm him. I have a son who was very restless as a toddler, and needed help to settle for a nap- it worked a treat most of the time, and gave us both abit of time out!

Oh yes, my dd finds sleeping really tricky when she is teething - tries to sleep and wants to but can't (naps and night-time) and gets up really early.

Would he understand 'Mummy is staying in bed but you can get up and play'? (cos that has been my philosophy for ages - I don't get up out of bed unless v exceptional til at least 8 or 8.30am. Used to shut her in my bedroom and have toys for her, now have stairgate on stairs (although she can't open it) or tell her not to go downstairs anyway. And I doze.)

Thank you all. These ideas are really helpful.

He managed a half hour nap today (after half an hour of protesting), but then I had to wake him up because we had to be somewhere. We have nothing on tomorrow, so I'll be aiming for longer than that.

I really don't think he is teething. There is no sign of the red cheeks, horrible nappies, drool, etc that he normally gets. I guess teething powders wouldn't harm, but I'm a bit reluctant to give Calpol if he isn't unwell.

Mummymagic - I have tried that approach. I lie in bed the spare room whilst he does his own thing, but he keeps shoving books under my nose and then tantrums if I don't read them to him. I'm all for encouraging reading, but not in the middle of the night. I'm very jealous of you getting to stay in bed until 8 or later!

Anyway, he is in bed (fast asleep by 7pm), with the gate back across his door. I'll add duct tape and other deterrants later.

Early night for me though, in an attempt to get some sleep.

Ah, good luck!!

It's nice to hear someone jealous of me (when usually it's just pity when I tell them of dd's frequent night wakings - since birth...)
To be fair, I get frequently hit on the head with a book too - and don't think I would like to do it from 5am!

Fingers crossed, it'll all start changing. IT'S JUST A PHASE

Ds is 15 months old - so maybe not the same problems - but having had the same as you - a really good sleeper for 12 months, I suddenly got dealt the waking up child from hell ! He would just start screaming in the middle of the night sometimes, and other times, waking up at 5am - wide awake wanting to play ! I tried everything - introducing a night light (he hated it), differnt bed covers (he threw them at me in protest) etc. And eventually I think we have conquered the early starts (still haven't sorted the night time screaming - but I'm working on it). DS now has a bowl of weetabix at 6pm (he goes to nursery full time and tea time is at c.4pm) and a bottle before bed at 7.30 - and all of a sudden he's starting sleeping later. It took about 5 or 6 days of this new food routine to work - but it's been working for the last 3 weeks - so, fingers crossed. It may be a coinsidence - but I'm willing to try anything. Re. the night time waking - I read some toddler book thing, that says to leave 5 minute intervals between going to him (I know this isn't everyone's cup of tea) but it seems to be working for us. We're down to a maximum of one wake a night - and quite often, a full sleep through ! Obviously, now I've said this, the little monster will have me up for 3 hours tonight ! I think that might be called sod's law ! Good luck

Feeling a bit more positive today. He slept until 5.45 this morning - not perfect, but better than 4/4.30. I let him pootle around and trash the bathroom whilst I hid in bed. He is having a proper nap now too after falling asleep in the car. I transferred him to bed without him noticing.

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May have spoken too soon. Last night was OK, but he is refusing to nap now, despite having had a busy and exciting morning. I think it is an 'overtired so too tired to sleep' sort of problem.

What about considering it a consistent quiet-time routine rather than a regular nap?

So still having milk (if part of nap routine), stories and a cuddle lying down in bed (yours or his) but just time to chill out. No stress if he doesn't sleep, instead encourage it as a happy, cuddly, quiet lying down time.

Might take pressure off - you can't MAKE them sleep