4 year old little boy came over for a playdate today and spent pretty much the whole time in the corner with his hands over his ears

[lummox]

Our house is noisy, but not that bad. The problem seemed to be set off by ds2 having a tumble and crying for a minute or two. As soon as it happened the little boy took himself off to the corner and stayed there with his hands over his ears for about an hour.

We tried various ways to entice him back but nothing worked.

His mother seems very worried about him, and wanted to know whether I thought it was abnormal. I said that I thought all kids had their ways of being upset (ds1 tantrums, etc) but that I really didn't know.

We don't live in the UK and I don't know her very well at all (this is only the second time we have met). We only had the playdate because we are both English and her ds is starting school tomorrow at the same school as ds1.

Any thoughts on whether I should I be suggesting she look for some form of support for him, or is this just one of those things that some 4 year olds do?

No it's not really what 4 year olds do. It's not a problem in itself as such. It depends if it goes with other behaviour. What sort of concerns does she have? Does he put his hands over his ears routinely for other noises (which would suggest hyperacuisis- can't spell)? Or is it more set of by anxiety?

The Out of Sync child would almost certainly be a good book for her- whatever the 'problem'.

set of? set off!

No specific knowledge/advice to offer, but these questions spring to mind:

1. Is the little boy an only child? If so, maybe he is unaccustomed to normal sibling squabbles.
2. Did the Mum stay for the playdate? Maybe he is too young to be left on his own in an unfamiliar place with unfamiliar people?
3. Has the boy been at nursery yet, or is the school that begins tomorrow his first experience 'away' from home/his Mum?

An hour seems a long time for a little boy to stand on his own. Maybe he just felt overwhelmed?

Poor mite

Agree the book Yurt suggested might help.

DS3 does do this 9although he is asd anyway) but its not alwys hyperacuity that triggers it- its only occasional with him, its a s tress reaction- creates his own space, iyswim? So its mroe of a reaction to a routine change than a noise BUT that stillw arrants a chat with the HV anyway

i do know that with my 'normal' 4yo, in unfamiliar surroundings he is most likely to opt out of participation or even replying to anyone, and the more anyone says to him, the deeper in his little hole he gets.

but, i dont think hes ever stayed that way for an hour. unless unknown people keep asking him to join in, that is!

i think its nice of you to be asking and thinking of how to support her.

DS does this if he hears someone crying, mind you it's better than throwing something at them like he used to do.
i don't think it's something a NT 4year old would do, but then i don't have NT kids.

My DS would put his hands over his ears at any loud noise when he was 3.5 to 4. but once the noise was gone he was fine. was it very noisy for the hour that he had his hands on his ears? an hour does seem like a long time?

Hmm, I don't know.

Some children are extremely sensitive to and worried by other children crying, and I have seen the hands over the ears thing in a good few very young children, I don't think it's THAT unusual. I suppose if it was for an hour that would be more unusual.

My ds was like this but has outgrown it now (he's five).

I agree that it could have been a sign of him being overwhelmed - it was his first visit to your place and it was all new. He might be extremely shy. Maybe if it were to happen again you could just get on with your own thing and leave him to it rather than trying to entice him out, that may have felt like too much pressure for him in that situation?

It did seem very like he was overwhelmed - that was exactly it.

On the questions - he is an only child.

His mum said that she had tried to send him to pre-school in England but that he had been too unhappy and she had taken him out.

His mum was there the whole time, and tried to encourage him to play with various things.

I don't think it was sibling interaction which was the problem. ds2 is only ten months, and ds1 wasn't involved in him falling over (on this occasion!). He didn't hurt himself at all, and only cried very briefly, but it seemed to cause a more ongoing difficulty for the little boy.

His mother is concerned that he is too clingy, and that she has caused him some sort of harm by keeping him with her all the time.

I am very sad for her, because I think it is particularly difficult to deal with this sort of thing in a foreign language and without family support.

onlyjoking - do you mind me asking what sort of SN your ds has?

peachy - it was very much like he was making his own safe space. I think that is part of what surprised me a bit - that he didn't cling to his mum (or just ask to leave) but sort of set himself apart from everyone.

Sorry - kept getting interrupted, so didn't see you post Honoria. Perhaps that would be worth a go. His mum did really try to jolly him along, but I think that she was v embarrassed (which she shouldn't have been).

She had brought some chocolate for her ds to give to ds1, but he couldn't bring himself to part with it. Seemed totally normal to me, but she was incredibly apologetic and seemed very upset.

It seems a bit of a vicious circle - her ds gets a bit overwhelmed and then she is so embarrassed that everything gets a bit awkward. I tried really hard to make her feel better, but she was so 'on edge' I don't think it worked.

Yurt1 - I think it was anxiety, but really don't know him well enough to be sure.

It could be that he is simply a very shy child who does not respond well to meeting others and who does not like being encouraged out of his shell.

Maybe not being happy at pre-school and being clingy are signs of his shyness.

It could be some form of SN of course but that's up to his mum to find out, there's nothing you can do to help there unfortunately! But I think there is a MASSIVE spectrum for 'normal' behaviour in kids of this age. They can be seriously odd but ok

Good on your for being so genuinely supportive of him and his mum though

yes, maybe it's her anxiety that's the problem here, she sounds like she may be transmitting rather a lot of it to her ds!

You're right Honoria, and I certainly do not want to get involved in amateur diagnosis of things that go well beyond my understanding.

The difficult thing is that she was asking my opinion and I know that she is in an unusually isolated position (no family, very few friends and only a limited grasp of French) so that I felt more responsibility that I might have done otherwise.

Hopefully the school will be in a position to help if any help is needed.

Hmm - perhaps I should have made it clear in my last post that we live in France (I was not suggesting that a limited grasp of French was in itself an issue in being isolated)!

lummox, hello to you my lady. I have just been debating posting about my ds but I think I will defer that for a moment (standing in the kitchen shouting "not me" over and over again - normal for a 2.5 year old?).

Ds is - as you know - an only child, and used a quiet home. When he started at the childminder he found loud noises distressing, and when the cm had her baby a few months ago, he found the baby's crying very distressing.

Now okay, he is 2.5, not 4, but if this little boy hasn't been around babies / other small children much, this might account for his behaviour. My ds really struggles with his bumptious cousins, for example, all of whom have siblings and thus are more used to the argy-bargy of family life.

What's the school situation in France? Will he be going soon or is it years off a la Sweden? It sounds like either way he could do with being used to socialising in bigger groups.

Overall I think it sounds like "one of those things". And now I must go and attend to the latest round of "not me, not me"

my three have autism, DS would never seek me out to comfort him, so if he was upset he would not come to me at all and if i went to him it made thing much worse.

Autistic ds1 does it all the time. More in relation to difference than noise (although both). Ds2 does it when things aren;t 'comfy' (too windy etc) and some of that could be copied form ds1- he also used to sniff books!, but not for an hour. ds3 never does it. DS2 and ds3 are NT. It's the length of time the little boy did it that would concern me BUT as I said earlier in itself not a problem, (nor is being clingy) depends what other behaviours it occurs in tandem with

Autistic ds1 does it all the time. More in relation to difference than noise (although both). Ds2 does it when things aren;t 'comfy' (too windy etc) and some of that could be copied form ds1- he also used to sniff books!, but not for an hour. ds3 never does it. DS2 and ds3 are NT. It's the length of time the little boy did it that would concern me BUT as I said earlier in itself not a problem, (nor is being clingy) depends what other behaviours it occurs in tandem with

Thanks to all for your thoughts.

onlyjoking and yurt1 - do you think that if you were in this woman's situation (abroad, no family, etc.) you would have welcomed 'my' opinion that perhaps it would be worth talking to somebody in case there is some support that could be accessed? I think one of the major difficulties would be that this kind of thing would be very hard to discuss in a foreign language. I think if it was me I might see if I could speak to someone in the UK?

Hey Trib! Good to read you.

I'm sure that part of the problem is that he is unused to groups. I think what surprised me was more the way he reacted than the fact that he was upset.

He is starting school tomorrow. Non-compulsory (but state-run) pre-school starts anytime from aged 2 here, so he is relatively old to be starting. ds1 started three weeks ago and is starting to settle - they seem to be kind and responsive. His mum is in a very, very keyed up state about him starting school tomorrow (which I can relate to having been a bag of nerves about ds1).

What is up with your ds? Feel free to hijack. Pretty sure the 'not me' stuff is not just normal but pretty much compulsory.

poor little thing

we had a 4 yr old (one of ds's friends do this) - ds fell over and hit his head and started screaming. Little boy ran into the corner with his hands over his ears and whimpered (or is it wimpered?!) 'please stop the noise'! He too was an only child who hadn't gone to pre-school and was just not used to being surrounded by children (not that I'm saying every child in those circumstances would be that way, just that he hadn't got used to the noise that lots of children make and got overwhelmed!). It took a fair amount of time to coax him out.

He's in his second year of school now and getting used to all the rough and tumble!

She may need a friendly ear when he starts school because it sounds like he'll find adjusting quite difficult (I imagine this is when, if there are any issues, that they will become obvious).

lummox- don;'t offer any opinion as to whether you think something may be up or not- that can be helpful if you know someone very well, but otherwise not. In your shoes I'd take the 'why not get him checked out next time you're in the UK and at least it will put your mind at rest' type line.

And really although the behaviour does set a few red flags waving in my eyes and a few alarm bells ringing- it's only in the context of other behaviours it becomes a problem- it could just indicate a sensitive child- and the out of synch child will help enormously with that.

Many thanks again yurt1 - that is exactly what I wanted to know. I will try and drop that into the conversation. Would be interested to read the out of synch child book for my own interest.

First morning at school did not go well at all unfortunately.

oh dear There's also the first signs website that I link to from my website.

Thanks again for that link, yurt (did you used to be someone who (mostly) kept off vax threads btw?).

I really wouldn't know how many of the first signs from your link apply to this little boy. What is becoming clear, though, is that his parents have extremely different parenting styles

His dad is constantly (and I mean constantly) trying to get him to play with other children, get involved and so on, and comparing him to other children ('look Jonny is playing the piano, why don't you play with the piano, you just never join in' type thing) but his mum's instinct seems to be to remove him from the situation as soon as he is unhappy.

I am certainly very pleased to have follwoed your advice not to say anything as I think the situation may be really very complicated.

One good thing is that my ds1 comes home from school saying that the little boy talked to him in English (said with great delight) and so perhaps they are getting on a bit?