PLease help I am at the end of my tether....(this could be long)

[loujay]

Hi,
I have posted before about my DD's behaviour and lack of sleep but I have now reched a point when I feel that I have no energy to try with her any more.
She gets up between 4.30 and 6 each morning (regardless of the time she goes to bed) and then refuses to go back to bed.
I think I have tried everything, the put back to bed technique thing from supernanny (who I may slap if I see her) which I have been trying for 2 months with no effect. She is 2.5 weeks into a star chart where if she stays in bed until her alarm goes off at 6.30 for 3 mornings in a row then she gets a star, she had several rewards, with pictures (because I am that creative!!) ranging from a packet of smarties for the first set of 3 up to a large dora present when she is 12 days in. SO far she has stayed in her bed until 6.30 for 3 mornings out of 15. She had the smarties, all going well I thought, and then she lost interest, isnt interested in getting anything else (polly pocket is the next reward and it is sitting on the mantlepiece where she can see it).
The trouble is that her behaviour during the day, as an ofshoot of her obvious tiredness is appalling. I feel completely out of my depth, she does not listen, stamps her feet, runs away whenever we are out etc etc etc. I could go on for days to be honest.
It is now affecting my relationship with DH, I cant see how else to discipline her, make her stay in bed and generally get our lives back on track. At this moment DH is putting a gate on her door and I am typing this and crying. IS the problem with me?? or is there actually something wrong with her?? She just doesnt seem to get what I say to her.
Help

How old is your DD?

Put the gate on the door, we had to do that with ds1 for a long time (wish we still could- can't find one he can't climb over). it did sort the problem.

She is 4.
I also have a 4 month old DS (which I know is part of the behaviour problem) but I am really starting to feel that there is an issue with her.

Not an expert, but questions that occur to me are:

Can she tell the time? If so, by 4yrs of age, I think it is reasonable to tell her to stay in her bed until X o'clock, or play quietly in her room until Y a.m. If telling the time is an issue, have you considered one of the rabbit clocks (e.g. Kidsleep)

Have you tried returning her to her bed/bedroom without making eye contact/talking (other than "It's night time, time to sleep" or summat similar?

Does she go to pre-school/school at all? Friends with kids in this age range have said that school usually turns their night-owls into morning layabouts. Is she getting enough physical exercise during the day?

Could you put a bolt on your bedroom door?!? You've tried a reward system, how about withdrawing toys/privileges until she plays ball?

I feel for you. Without sleep, it's impossible for her or you to function during the day.

Have you tried taking stuff/toys away for the bad days and then give some back making lots of fuss how good they are etc for the days she stays in bed till 6.30.

Is she old enough in being able to organise her own bedroom - maybe she dosent like the bed where it is?

This is the kidsleep clock. We got one for our DD and it worked like a charm.
I think the visual nature of it helped a great deal and we also had little rabbit bring her a present if she stayed in bed til he woke up (concocting some guff if she got up before he did about "well, he was on his way to the kitchen to get your treat, then you woke up and he had to run back... blah blah blah"
I do feel for you enormously. Chin up

Sounds like you have very strong willed dd. Mine is 8 and is such hard work, every day a battle. Star/reward charts only work for short time. i have 4 children and the others are not like her, thankfully! i realised that i had to accept dd for who and what she is, i compromise on areas that are not life threatening ( what she wears etc) but put foot down firmly when it matters. because of this she gets her own way sometimes and that pacifies her (she doesnt realise its only on issues that are of no real importance!) Consistency is the key, but she will never change, you have to learn just to cope with her the way she is

Sorry guys, had to feed DS.
Ok to answer questions etc.............She is at school all day so is knackered but that has made no difference to her sleeping pattern.
She will not stay in her room quietly (hence putting a gate back on today.
SHe does have an alarm clock which is set to go off at 6.30 - early but I have accepted that she will never lay in until 7!!
I do the no eye contact thing.......doesnt work.
Taking things away doesnt work either - although today I have said no TV or DVD's
She is really strong willed as, apparently am I and we seem to hit each other head in if you know what I mean.
I have looked at that kidsleep clock though (thanks scootergrrrl) and it may work as she can not yet tell the time.
Tiredness is what is killing me at the moment. I don't seem to function too well on 5 hours sleep, what with DS up for feeds during the noght and then an early riser. I will soon be going to bed before the kids!!

Poor lamb.

I really can't sing the clock's praises enough (and no, they're not paying me!). DD's rabbit used to bring her all kinds of tat and it was only a problem when DH and I had been out for dinner and were too merry to remember to leave something. Madam was NOT HAPPY!

Poor you LJ. FBC speaks good sense i say (my DS also has a strong will).

I know its a comprimise rather than a solution but can she get in your bed or you (or DH) in with her so at least you can dose.

Or will she get up and watch TV on her own til you get up?

I dont really want her in our bed as she will not sleep/ keep quiet/ read etc.
I do put her downstairs to watch TV but 5.30 watching TV is really not what I want her doing (at one stage last week she spent 30 mins watching Nascar racing as that was all there was on!!
Will try the gate and order the clock.

Good luck with all the suggestions. And to echo the earlier point I imagine this is all flaring up because of DS's arrival. If so, just keep repeating the mantra...it's will pass, it's just a phase, it's not forever.

Do you manage any time with just you and DD? If she's feeling a little pushed out by the arrival of the baby maybe she'd respond to a little Mummy time on her own. From her point of view I guess 4.30 in the morning is the only time she has your full attention.

Update -
Gate on last night, DD woke at 4.50am, went and put her back in bed, she woke up at 7.45!!!
Whether it is a one off or conincidence I dont care............I feel as if I have had 12 hours sleep.

Hooray!

Good for you!

With regard to FBC's observations about compromising on non-life-threatening areas, I totally agree. Even though DS is only 2, I choose the battles carefully, and only dig my feet in when it is something really important, e.g. holding hands or being on reins near roads. But, for me, getting up at silly o'clock would fall into this category. Children who don't get enough sleep can't function well during the day (just as adults can't). As she has started school, it is important that she is able to get the most out of it. So if it were me, I would be more likely to stick to your guns, put up the stairgate, and insist that she return to bed until "little rabbit" gets up.

PS We also have the kidsleep clock - recommended from 2.5 yrs, but working with our 22 month old. Helped enormously by the fact that his bedtime comforter is - happy coincidence - a rabbit. He is awake before "little rabbit" wakes up each morning, but now usually sits in his cot until the clock switches over to "day mode". Then we hear loud shouts of "rabbit wake up"...

It is soooo gruelling when you have such early starts though - for nearly 6 months last year we were up at 5.30am. Much easier to be the parent you want to be when you are feeling refreshed. I do hope today's lie-in was not a one-off. Let us know how it goes.

loujay - my friends had this problem with their Ds . they put a gate on his door and ignored him when he woke. he used to shout, scream and bang things for attention. after about a week it workede and he gave up and stayed inbed.

Sounds tough. good luck

Loujay, have only read your post and skimmed the responses. I hope you don't mind me saying but I think you are being a bit tight with your stars! At the age of 4 she will lose interest in the star chart very quickly. I know it must be extremely frustrating and very tiring for you especially with a younger sibling to deal with. Could you not give her a star for every morning she stays in bed til the alarm goes off? That way at least she could see the stars increasing and it may encourage her.

Just a thought and hope it might help you.

Sounds obvious but it worked for us:

1. Make sure the room is dark enough-sheer despair forced us to put a blanket over the nicely matching curtains (sod the curtains, we wanted some sleep!!!)

1. Listen out for noises at that time in the morning (bin men, dogs etc) that may be waking her and maybe get thicker curtains to block out noise.

1. If you have a night light, wake up before she does and turn it off. If she sees it's dark when she awakes-she might go back to sleep

1. I heard that if you wake them up before they wake you, it disrupts their pattern and they will stop waking you too early (haven't tried it). DD's behaviour is almost definately because of lack of sleep.

1. Cut out any daytime nap times.

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Hey loujay, hope things are working out for you all, sleep wise. We used stairgate for ds2 to stop him coming into our room during the night, worked wonders! I feel your dd will still have troublesome behaviour even if she gets enought sleep as my dd1 is strong willed, demanding, headstrong and stroppy and she's always slept well, its just her personality!! You can cope with it much better though when you've had your sleep. Good luck

Hi guys, update number 2...............DD has got 3 stars in a row and has obtained the ever elusive Polly Pocket from her chart.
Behaviour is now at a level that I can handle thanks to enough sleep (I actually had to wake her up at 8am this morning so she had enough time to get ready for school.
Awaiting the clock and currently reading "how to talk so kids will listen ..."
Long may it continue - although I am not counting any chickens just yet.