What are the alternatives to star charts and the naughty step? - not my style

[TheGrimPruner]

I'm approaching the end of my tether
DS is nearly 4, almost never stops doing things when we ask him to.

We are not slack parents, we have consistently needed to be more disciplined with him than we ever wanted to be: he is just too strong-willed and whilst I totally buy all the stuff about guiding a strong personality rather than stifling it, you'll appreciate there are times when letting him do what he likes is not an option.

Things like the naughty step: well, perhaps you have a child who responds to that sort of thing, but for it to work with ds would require a level of bullying that I am uncomfortable with. I appreciate this isn't the same for every child.

I would like some alternatives because tbh the next step for me is to scream and shout and I don't want to.

i also find myself getting cross when i really don't want to. We don't do the naughty step but we have been known to send 4yo ds 'to bed', i.e. physically removing him from wherever he had been causing trouble, leave him in his bedroom and close the door. Explaining calmly why you're doing it. Sometimes he cries for a bit then says sorry and comes out; sometimes he falls asleep (he is always more naughty when tired); sometimes he quietly plays with his toys and we just forget about it.

I always try not to get angry and shout - I repeat to myself "Model Good Behaviour, Model Good Behaviour" - it works so well. If he's causing havoc somewhere and I sit down and start doing a jigsaw, he comes to join me and we can have a nice time without any shouting.

They just do it to get a reaction!

Good luck! I'll be watching to see what people recommend as I'm always looking for ways to avoid being a dragon. xx

my ds has time out he is 2.6 and this works great for him i give him a warning then he goes to tuime out he sits there no problem for his 2 mins and he always does as his told when comes out of it

but it does not work for every child

you could do the toy tub where he loses one of his favourite toys but can have it back when being good and continue taking away until earns them back

you could do time out maybe but leave him alone in a room with no toys or anything to play with instead of trying to get him to sit in one spot

my brother used to get sent to his room but loved it he'd play with his toys read a book or put himself to bed there was no punishment he didnt like lol

you need to work out the one thing he really wouldnt like and use that as a start point my ds hates being away from me so time out for him is horrible and always works but all children react different so you need to find what would upset your son enough to realise he did wrong good luck

removing him from the crime scene, to his room for example, doesn't have to become a physical fight - you just lift him up, carry him there and put him down by the way. even if he is struggling. you have to have some authority...

But indiemummy - I appreciate your input, I really do - it's just that I wouldn't be posting that it is a physical fight to lift him up and put him in his room if it weren't.
He is a big, strong boy. Stronger when angry. He thrashes about, lashes out, he's like an eel. I have had an injury (pulled muscle) to my arm for a couple of months now that I got when carrying him off a bus (tantrum-related) and I keep hurting it when I carry him in full-on tantrum mode.
When you have a child who is fighting you, yet you want him to do whatever it is, then you use more force than you would otherwise. I am against using force in this way, particularly against a small child. I'd be a pretty poor role model I think.
That's why I'm posting here. If it were as easy as putting him in his room....that would be great. I thoroughly envy people who have children who don't need more than that.

BTW my descriptions of the force necessary are only relating to my ds.
I know other people can do this with their children and it needn't be bullying/borderline violent behaviour.

I can see where you're coming from, TGR... DS is a year younger than yours and already I wouldn't try carrying him downstairs (we have an upside-down flat with the bedrooms downstairs and living area upstairs) if he were in mid-tantrum. There's too great a chance that I'd lose my balance.

We have resorted to 'time out' (sooo American, I know) but it works well so far. Guess it's basically another version of the naughty step, but by calling it 'time out' it turns it into a place to cool off, reflect etc rather than a place to go when you are 'bad'. Plus 'time out' can take place anywhere - it involves going to sit or stand in another space (another room, a corner, the hall or whatever) where you don't get to have fun and do what you want for a couple of minutes. It's hard all this discipline stuff. My mum let us run wild and my gran used the wooden spoon when it all got too much, so I don't have a blueprint for this lark. grin

um I mean

Another vote her for How to talk etc....

I typed out the bullet point advice summaries at the end of each chapter, and stuck them on my kitchen cabinets (adds a real charm to the kitchen decor).

I am frequently pushed to the absolute limit with dd1, total purple headed fury and if you press one more of my buttons you little (insert choice word) I am just going to do something we will both regret.

At that point I go and read my kitchen cabinets. They are helpful.

I have also given up on anything naughty step (complete waste of time), but do use the occasional time out session in bedroom for extreme breakdowns in normal & acceptable human behaviour.

How To talk was a great read but my DS is just too young for it to really 'work' (although it does help to me adjust my attitude inside from one of rage / annoyance to one of understanding and acceptance...at least some of the time anyway ).

"If you do x, y will happen"
and do it.

eg "If you draw on the table again, I will take the pens away" - and do it if he does. Repeat why you have done it, if he is cross "I know you are cross but I took your pens away because you drew on the table. Play with something else." You don't have to shout or scream. He needs to know there are (logical) consequences to his actions.

And of course, say thank you/good when he stops (it will happen in time when he realises you mean it.)

But also bear in mind that all kids misbehave at times, no-one is perfect.

We have time out too, and it isnt timed. It lasts for as long a it takes the child to calm down and come an dapologise, if they say sorry, we ask what they are sorry for, if they can actually answer (you wouldnt believe how many times they 'don't know' ) then they can come out.

It's a kind of reflection time rather than a punishment. I rarely need to punish them, they get their warning, then time out,then they behave.

If I need a real punishment, ie if theyve been really naughty, its toys in the bin, or a treat taken away, if they are expecting one.

Also with time out, there is none of this making a child sit somewhere, it is just removing attention from them, as simple as going to another room, or if you're in the car, standing outside the car, it is easily adaptable for each situation.

Earlier DS was being a right little sod at the bus stop, so I stood next to him, held his hand and totally ignored him, as he is used to time out he knew why I was doing what I did and apologised, then started behaving.

What level of physical involvement are you happy with? And how much tantrumming? In a cafe for example we would just pick dd up and take her outside (after a warning of course). If she calmed down we might bring her back in for another try, but otherwise we left (we ususally went to places where you pay as you collect your drinks...).

We asked nicely, then warned, then removed. No fuss.
It did work with her.

Not sure how that would work at home though. We do go through phases of putting things "on the shelf"...

PS in cafes, can you just 'go with it' ie let him play? allow him to play with lots and then set some subtle conditions - oh, sweetheart don't tip the salt over but oh wow look can you balance them all on this really small bit of serviette.

Have you tried choices, pruners? I would stay completely calm (that's the hard bit esp if they are wrecking a cd player) and just say, 'you can either leave the cd player alone or you're not having supper tonight'.

In cafes it was always just, 'you can choose to put that down now or we leave'. Avoiding anger in the voice (because they normally want anger), just fact and laways following throug immediately.

(I hate any sort of pissing about in cafes.)

Choices are good! Ah yes indeed. I often give DS choices when he is just being mildly annoying in a typical toddler-ish sort of way (like clowning around when I am late for an appointment and desperate for ghim to get dressed: 'Do you want to put your shoes on so we can go outside and see the sunny day, or shall we stay here in the boring old house all day with our shoes off?' - very manipulative tee hee

Best to use 'choices' when they are still at the 'defiant but not totally brattish' stage, though. Let them have the power to determine their own destiny and all that . Once they're tantrumming or just pissing about too annoyingly, there can only be one choice. Do as I say NOW or (insert punishment). Then follow through.

Supernanny is the ultimate exponent of the naughty step but doesn't ever combine it with shouting. The parent is supposed to be very calm and use a low voice with eye contact to tell the child what they did wrong. You might have to lead or carry the child to the right place then you leave them there. If they move you take them back and you need to be prepared to continue like this for up to 2 hours the first time. But no violence/bullying is required. You might have to pick your son up whilst he struggles against you and put him down when you get to the right place, but you don't pin him down when he's there - he is free to get up and leave but must be returned there. It is a battle of wills but not about shouting or violence from the parent.

I would love to read Unconditional parenting and the playful parenting books to hear a different philosophy...but I think teaching children that their choices have consequences is going to be fundamental to any method isn't it?

I'm with you TGP over actually getting DS to his room. He's so strong and with limbs flailing, no way can I do it without being over physical. Suppose that one just depends on the child and how they react to it. Also, I reckon lots of hte above suggestions are fine, but reasoning/ doing deals depends totally on where the child's at. If they're tired and already in a tantrum, no amount of reasoning is going to work. Seeing it coming before it starts is the only thing that will work. If it's too late and tantrum's full on, my DS gets so out of control that all I can do is sit quietly near, try to stop him hurting himself, then cuddle him once he's calm. He gets so irrational and upset and out of control that there's really no point in telling him off. Trick really has to be to avoid it getting that far I suppose. Easier said than done..

Pruner, I think you need to totally re-think your expectations. Your ds is three! You say you have been taking things from him for 'years' with 'no improvement'. He's three! I'm not trying to annoy you by saying this, I just mean that you are hoping for utterly and completely too much if you expect him to have cracked all this before he is four.

It may drive you less mad if you accept that - and never, never 'project' his behaviour to the future. He WON'T be like this at 13, he's like it now because it's the only way he can be but with consistency and knowing where the boundaries are of course he will change - in time.

When you tell him not to do something, you need to make it impossible for him to carry on. As in, drawing on the table, immediately stuff some paper underneath him and immediately challenge him to draw you something he utterly loves so that he forgets any thought of defying you (hopefully ) i think with many children at this age distraction is still needed quite often, when you need to say no it's diluted if you immediately distract as well in some way I think.

Could you trust him more? With things like the CD player, let him put stuff in as long as you are next to him watching. If he was to try to reach cd's when you're not there obviously he would have to know that's not ok and you'd take them away.

I also think with boys this age it so helps to tune into their sense of humour and competition and make stuff into challenges rather than talking to them in a 'don't do this' or 'do this' way....it saves alot of confrontation IMO.

I do apologise if this post is disjointed and annoying, I am v under the weather at the moment and prob. making no sense.

But I did feel you might be expecting too much of your ds in some ways?

Honoria is right on many points there, my DS is just turning three, and although he does get time out etc for things he knows not to do, (pull the cats tail, climb up on my kitchen side, not tidying his room etc) but alot of the time I find it easier not to argue, not everything is worth the hassle, distraction can be the perfect answer, as can challenges.
If for example, Ds won't tidy his room, before we get to the time out stage, I'll say 'right, I'll do the teddies on your bed, you put the books on the windowsill, race you?' and he'll normally do it. If he still doesn't thats when time out/warning-punishment time comes about.

I have to say that I think you need to consider the point you made about not wanting to be like your mother. It is completely fine to want to avoid the kind of relationship you've ended up with with yours but if you get too paranoid about this surely you'll avoid anything that could make him dislike you?

As I see it, our job as parents isn't always to choose the thing that will make us popular with our dc's but the thing that will make them grow up well-rounded, well behaved and feeling loved as much as possible. Sometimes that involves doing things that will make them dislike us a little.

Well, yes and no (re the mother thing) - it's complicated.

I know it looks like I have these unreal expectations - I don't, really, I mean I do know what 3 - 4 yr olds are like. But you know when it hits you that you've been doing all this stuff (really, everything mentioned on this thread that's good, current advice for bringing up small children) and are getting nowhere with it and you see parents whose children can sit and eat a meal when told, who don't test your patience every time in public, who don't speak to you like you are an underling...I know it's all within normal range, I just got a bit overhwelmed this afternoon and tbh I am really grateful for this thread as I really felt I was going to explode.

And I didn't, I managed to talk to him about which behaviour was leading towards things he didn't want to happen, he did go to his room once and I didn't have to physically force that, and in the end we had a lovely late afternoon and then sat with the pumpkin lanterns on cackling maniacally and waiting to frighten dh.

Long road ahead with him, I guess - I think he got a massively strong personality, too much for us really!
But thanks everyone.

dd2 has a very strong personality too pruni, and some days I don't like her very much

love her, but don't like her as I spend my whole day getting ANNOYED at her disobedience (which I can't spell)

but I just think, well she is 3, lets hope she improves

my problem is that I compare her to dd1 which is unfair and I need to stop that

hope you have a better day tomorrow, off to bed now