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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

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Original poster

What are the alternatives to star charts and the naughty step? - not my style

61 replies

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 14:04

I'm approaching the end of my tether
DS is nearly 4, almost never stops doing things when we ask him to.

We are not slack parents, we have consistently needed to be more disciplined with him than we ever wanted to be: he is just too strong-willed and whilst I totally buy all the stuff about guiding a strong personality rather than stifling it, you'll appreciate there are times when letting him do what he likes is not an option.

Things like the naughty step: well, perhaps you have a child who responds to that sort of thing, but for it to work with ds would require a level of bullying that I am uncomfortable with. I appreciate this isn't the same for every child.

I would like some alternatives because tbh the next step for me is to scream and shout and I don't want to.

OP posts:

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pagwatch · 31/10/2007 14:11

the point of star charts is to positively reward behaviour you want. the naughty step is a sanction to discourage behaviours you don't.
I don't use start charts for 2 of my kids but i praise them and etll them i am proud of them for doing things well. they like that.
And when they play up I make something happen thatthey don't like. If we are at the shops or the park we leave imediately. Or they don't get a treat they were expecting. Or they get a treasured posssesion taken away.
It depends on knowing your child.
I am not sure why the naughty step is bullying though. Are you sure you are not trying to avaoid ANY sanction with your DS - in which case he will become all the more "strong willed".

MrsArchieTheScaryInventor · 31/10/2007 14:20

I don't use the naughty step either but that's just because it doesn't work for us at this point in time, though it has in the past and I daresay will in the future.

It's hard to give advice without knowing what kind of thing your ds is up to and refusing to do. Is it things like not putting his toys away or felt-tipping the dining table?

oliveoil · 31/10/2007 14:25

we didn't have to do anything with dd1 but dd2.....

NAB3 · 31/10/2007 14:26

Marbles!

I have started them with my oldest 2 and I have high hopes.....

GarrottedbyElasticband · 31/10/2007 14:29

i never liked naughty step.
did like star charts, dc's usually wangled lots of extra stars though
i think that is the point of positive parenting. it is hard to remember though. I like it when you sit nicely, and stuff like that.tbh i find it easier to behave like that to other peoples children!

Smee · 31/10/2007 15:30

My little tyrant is vitually always after a response. He keeps doing whatever just to see what I'll do. If at all possible I walk away, don't get cross, just say that's not on, so I'll come back when you've stopped doing it. Don't enter into any sort of debate about it (fatal with ours, he can argue the legs off a table..) and preferably leave the room. If you're not in the room with him, there's no point for him to continue doing it. Works every time pretty much for me.

If he's up to something dangerous, then obviously you can't do the above. Other than physically stopping him (which is to be avoided at all costs in my opinion as it just turns into a tantrum), I try if I can to turn whatever into a game before we get to conflict. ie say I don't think you can do whatever it is I'm asking you to do/ or turn off the tv/ pull the bath plug/ go to the loo before I get there, etc, etc. Bless the beast, but my DS can't resist a challenge and it usually works.

Another thing I do is to give him a get out. My DS is so stubborn, that if he's said no to something it's hard to get him to shift unless I meet him half way. Might be disapproved of by some, but it almost always avoids major tantrums in our house and I always make sure I get what I want as part of the deal. We're very big on deals in our house..

One final one - am a bit ashamed of this, but it does so work. If out somewhere and he's being foul, I gently tell him that someone in authority might come and tell him off if he continues (ie bus driver, shop assistant, security guard, whatever). He always always stops. Am sure that makes me a woeful mum, but hey. Anything not to be out and about with a brat in tow..

Any suggestions back welcomed. Motherhood seems like one hell of a challenge some days

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 15:34

pagwatch, I don't think the naughty step is bullying, but with my ds it would be, because it would require a level of shouting/physical restraint that I am uncomfortable with.
I do perfectly understand the point of star charts and positive reinforcement. This thread is about What to do when that makes no dent on the behaviour.

OP posts:

casbie · 31/10/2007 15:38

a sharp telling off, and then a cuddle if good and if naughty/not listening, then given chances before being sent to bed on their own.

we have three and they hate being sent off to be on their own!

if a tantrum in the street, i just let them get on with it. i wait until they can't possibly stamp/scream/shout/fling themselves around anymore and then give them a cuddle.

both me and hubby are very stubborn, so we have a long future of conflicts and cuddles!!!

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 15:40

OK types of behaviour (all within normal limits, I understand)
Yes to drawing on table, looks up with a half-interested look when told to stop, then carries on.
Not stopping when told eg not to put a cd into the cd player (which subsequently broke - and was fixed again - but not the point) and knowing that only response is 'don't do it', that a house rule is no mucking around with cds etc etc
In restaurants or cafes, never failing to mess around with condiments etc, put things in drinks, mess with other people's food. The exception is Starbuck's.....
Spitting, in all its glorious forms. He seems to do it really for his own pleasure, rather than to get a rise out of me.

These are just a few egs, actually some days it is everything according to what sort of mood he's in.

OP posts:

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 15:42

Sending him to bed used to work
Now it doesn't
I am going to persevere, but it is horrendous, tbh, the screaming etc
I know this is done to get me to relent, I am fully aware
I would like if there were a different way.... [hopeful]

OP posts:

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 15:43

Actually, this thread is about, I am becoming my mother, and I don't truly love or like her, so obviously I don't want ds to feel the same way about me.

OP posts:

Piggy · 31/10/2007 15:44

Drawing on table - take pen away
Mucking around with cd - take cd away and turn off cd player at the wall
Fooling around with condiments - move condiments out of the way

Spitting is a hard one. Perhaps he does it to get a rise out of you. What happens if you ignore?

demonaid · 31/10/2007 15:48

Have you read How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen And Listen So Your Kids Will Talk^ ?

Probably worth a read as it talks a lot of sense. The focus is on effective communication (two-way) and on "natural consequences" rather than punishments.

Pitchounette · 31/10/2007 15:50

Message withdrawn

doggiesayswoof · 31/10/2007 15:52

Have you seen "how to talk so kids will listen" - here

It works v well (mostly) with dd who is 3. She does actually listen when I use the techniques. It's hard to sum up (eg I can't really remember right now - doh) but it's good - when I read it first I realised I'd been ranting at dd and basically talking too much, so she was switching off.

doggiesayswoof · 31/10/2007 15:52

x-post with demonaid.

There was a good thread on here discussing the book too - will try and find.

Smee · 31/10/2007 15:53

I tried the sending to room thing, but it's the same problem as you mentioned with the naughty step. It took a lot of physicality to get him there and felt weird to me. Not saying it's wrong, just not right for me/ him. I reckon it's their job to test boundaries at the age they're at. Ours to tell them what they are. Only trick is to do it without it being a battle / nagging ground. Think of it like a game, that you don't always win. That's what I'm trying to do. Only way to stay sane. Can't imagine what they'll be like as teenagers...

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 15:54

Yes but piggy, I have been removing things from ds's grasp for years now, and there is no improvement, with the addition of him now totally ignoring us - deciding his way is better and we are quite possibly irrelevant.
Of course we do that - but look, when is that going to stop? At the moment I foresee that he will be 13 and putting pepper in the salt and salt in the drinks and we will be treading the same tired old path. I want him to listen and respond. I know he won't do it for everything, I am not being unrealistic, but I want some improvement in the status quo.

OP posts:

pagwatch · 31/10/2007 15:56

TheGrimPruner.
I wasn't being sarky - it was a genuine question. So your DS will not obey if instructed to sit somewhere and would have to be 'forced' is what you're saying?

I did follow up in my reply with the thing where you have to figure out what your child least wants to happen in any given situation.
But I didn't mention that my DS2 is profoundly autistic and had very poor communication skills and was in the early days very violent. So I had to figure out hwta works in a big hurry before he hurt someone or ended up in residential care.
He is nearly 11 now and does exactly as he is told.He is gorgeous and cheeky and gets away with murdet [ grin] but he knows the line and he does as he is told the second he gets there. So do my other two
I would never be aggressive or bullying to him because he is so vulnerable( and so lovely). the simple thing i descibed - depriving him of something he wants or making something that he does not want to happen happen, is the thing that worked for me.
My other two kids get variations on this. the eldest is 14 and is a really nice kid and very well behaved.
the secret is that they must always know that you absoloutely absoloutely will do the thing you threaten.

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 15:56

I have actually - I loved that book and a few times it had an almost miraculous effect.

I think I will go and re-read it. It's really very good. I am just kind of at the end of my tether today and smee you are right about boundaries

OP posts:

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 16:00

Thanks pagwatch
I am sorry I was so short earlier
It is absolutely that he will not sit and to make him do so would be to physically pin him down, or to shout so much that he is bullied.
Keeping him in his room is getting similar tbh.
I think I have just lost a bit of perspective today
MN is good at getting it back (thank you)

OP posts:

doggiesayswoof · 31/10/2007 16:01

V true about boundaries. Inevitable that they will push your buttons, unfortunately. If it didn't annoy you, there wouldn't be any point in doing it, I suppose.

I also think an occasional shout is ok (fine to show dc you are angry imo) but obv no use if you do it all the time...

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 16:01

Pitchounette, thanks, I am going to look into those books

OP posts:

pagwatch · 31/10/2007 16:03

Don't apologise . My post did sound sarky !
And we all have those days - why do you think i am on here? Just remember this will pass. ( he will have invented far worse stuff a year from now )

Original poster

TheGrimPruner · 31/10/2007 16:07

Doggie, the thing about shouting - with ds - is that he now gets this look that suggests to me "I am totally withdrawing from you" - it's not so much insolence as (it looks like) a defence mechanism.
And I love him, so watching his reaction is like torture.
He just goes totally quiet and refuses any eye contact, gives no reaction. That's if I shout loudly. Anyhting before that gets a lot of normal small child reactions.
I just can't keep doing that, there must be a better way.

OP posts:

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