Don't think time out is working anymore. How do you discipline your children?

[Pinkchampagne]

I have been using time out, but it no longer seems to be having much effect, especially with DS1 (nearly 8), who will refuse to go to the step/corner/his room & is probably getting a bit too old for this.
He also throws huge tantrums if I manage to get him in his room, where he thumps at the door etc & screams at me.
The time out seems to make the behaviour worse, but what is the alternative?

I have been trying the praising the positive etc, and I know you are meant to try to ignore the bad, but there is some bad behaviour (like scratching & marking his brother) that I cannot just ignore.

I have been on my own with them for the last 3 months, and am finding it quite hard to deal with the behaviour problems I have been having with the boys.

It sounds as though your Mother doesn't support you very much, and almost as if she is on their dads side in all this. He uses their fear of him as a means of discipline, gives treats as a way of getting back in their good books, and has the gall to tell you that you're the soft touch!
Grandparents quite often spoil grandchildren after a separation because they are 'trying to make up' for the situation. Fathers living away from the children often do the same. Sometimes it is borne of fear that they will be prevented from seeing the children, and sometimes it's just competition with the other parent, trying to prove a point. Material gifts may please the children in the short term, but are no substitute for firm loving discipline, as you are trying to implement.
Just a query, does the dad always see the boys at your parents, or does he have them by himself for any length of time with no additional adult assistance? I only ask because my exh regularly had people running around helping him, even on holiday there would be his mum, sister, girlfriend etc. yet I'd be criticised for 'not coping' on my own.
I think you're doing a lot better than you think!

Have had a really bad day with DS1 since he returned from his dad's house, but they both seem very tired after being up until late round ex H's friends house.

My ex husband was staying with my parents until recently, so the boys spent a lot of time round there, but he has now moved into his own house.

Followed your advice, twentypence, and ignored DS1 while he was creating & telling me he hated me, and took DS2 out to fill the paddling pool.
Not feeling at my strongest today though, and it has all reduced me to tears.

Early night for them tonight, then.

Have you asked him why he says he hates you? Maybe make him stop and think about what he's saying. Ask him how it would make him feel. And in the meantime try not to let it get to you. I very much doubt he means it.

I haven't asked him why he says he hates me, but when he calmed down I asked why he is being so mean. He just said "I don't know"
I told him that I love him & it makes me sad.

It wasn't just the "I hate you", but a collection of things today that have got me down so badly. I will post properly when the boys are in bed. I don't often get to the point of tears, I can normally take quite a lot, but today I feel I can't take much more of this.

I think what Nightynight says, strikes a very true note .

My DSs don't think of me as the boss either!

I didn't let the children see that I was tearful. I had to walk away & go upstairs for a minute.

Do they not, Dino? It is hard isn't it?

It is tough trying to take control on my own, when they have always seen daddy as the big boss.
I knew it would be hard, but didn't realise just how hard.

No, they definitely see their dad as the boss. I know this is not good and that they should perceive us as equals.

Mine do know when I am really angry though. Which doesn't happen all that often. But I must get a different tone in my voice or something because they do stop in their tracks then.

Mine seem quite immune to my angry voice, it's obviously pretty naff!

It only works with me when I am, genuinely, livid!

Anyway, must dash now and rescue DS3 who is bouncing on DS2's bed!

I have had "I hate you mummy" as well - they are just parroting what their father says, ignore ignore....my children have since admitted to me that they believed I was (their word) bad, after listening to their father but then they discovered this wasnt true....just hang on in there.

Bless him, sounds like he was having fun, Dino!

The boys were returned to me at 2pm today, and seen as it was a nice day I thought I would take them out to the local paddling pool, seen as we have been pretty much house bound all week.
I told boys I was going to take them out & DS1 started saying "No, I'm not going"
DS2 was very entusiastic, so I said we would go down but if DS1 didn't want to go in the water he didn't have to, and I started getting the bits together.
DS1 said to DS2 "Don't listen to mummy", when he saw how enthusiastic he appeared.
We went to the paddling pool, and he did want to go in the water with his brother, but we didn't stay that long as they seemed tired, so they got dressed & we started to make our way home.
We had just left the paddling pool, when DS1 said "I want to go to nanny's house"
I told him we couldn't go to nanny's because she was out, but he ignored me & kept repeating in a very whiney voice "I want to go to nanny's"
I told him again that she wasn't home, but if he was very good we would maybe go round tomorrow.
He took no notice & kept saying "I want to go to nanny's" again & again, and then he refused to budge at all.
I took him by the hand, and he started trying to pull away & went to swipe out at me with his other hand, but I stopped him.
He then grabbed onto a lamp post to stop himself again, and I had to prise his hand off.
I had this kind of behaviour for the whole journey home, and a tired DS2 who kept wanting me to pick him up. It was awful, and I could feel myself getting quite tearful.
Got into the house & DS1 continued to create, and this is when I took myself upstairs in tears.
I felt pathetic that I was reduced to tears by a child who is not yet 8 years old, but I just couldn't take much more.

Came down after a minute or so, and DS1 was still very angry because he wasn't at nanny's house, and was shouting out "I hate you!"
This was when I ignored his behaviour & asked DS2 if he wanted to fill his paddling pool in the garden, which we did.

Ds1 continued to strop for a bit, and then started to calm down, which was when I talked with him & asked why he was being mean, and that I loved him a lot & that it made me sad.
He said he didn't know why he was mean & he later apologised.

DS2 was asleep soon after 6pm tonight, and I have spent a good couple of hours with DS1 on his own.
We have been in the garden, I made him crumpets to eat outside & pushed him on his monkey swing. It was nice to have that bit of time to ourselves, and DS1 has been a different child.
He made me a heart out of some wire, and said "I like you, mummy"

Sorry for the long post!

DS1 has been coming up & hugging me a lot this evening too.
I think he really enjoyed having that time alone with me, without DS2 around.

That sounds like a good start - the problem with ignoring bad behaviour is that initially it does increase - as most bad behaviour is done for attention and so if you ignore it he will do more to try and get some. Once he realises it's not going to happen this way it should stop, and at the slightest hint of it's return remove yourself from the situation. Don't wait until you are upset.

I couldn't remove myself straight away as we were walking home, although I tried hard to ignore. I think the problem was that I had had that intensly for the 15 minute walk home, which was a real struggle, and by the time I got home my emotions got the better of me & I ended up tearful.

It is very rare that I get myself so run down that I end up tearful, but this afternoon I really felt at my wits end.

PC - do your boys go to bed at the same time normally or could you use different bed times to give you leverage?

What about if you use a variation on the pasta jar idea with DS1 - say, if DS1 goes to bed 30 minutes later than DS2, he starts the day with 6 pieces of pasta and each piece of pasta = 5 minutes. Then, sit together and draw up a list of things that loses/gains pasta. At bedtime, if he has more than 6 pieces of pasta, he chooses what you do during that half-hour; with 6 pieces, he gains the half hour privilege, and anything less, he goes to bed five minute earlier for each piece lost.

At 8, boys have this strong sense of justice and it might just work, if it isn't too complicated, that is .

It can't help that your Mum, Dad and ex- all seem to be undermining you. Is there anyone else who could have a word or back you up - an uncle? an uncle figure?

My boys normally have around a 30 minute difference between their bedtimes, with DS2 going up first & then DS1. The problem is that even if DS2 is asleep when DS1 goes to bed, he ends up waking up within minutes. This even happened tonight with DS2 going to bed before 6.30pm (after falling asleep with exhaustion) & DS1 following nearly 2 hours later!
DS2 woke up, but was very crabby & kept shoting at DS1, so I had to move him into my room.
They had never shared a room until we moved 3 months back, as we had a 4 bedroom house, and it is proving a nightmare!

I did try the pasta jar thing once, but they lost interest. That was a few years back though, so I could try it again.

Not sure that there is anyone I could use as an uncle figure to back me up.

DS1 came home with a Spiderman DVD today. They are always getting material things from their dad, and it really isn't helping me at all.

Should say "shouting at DS1"

Can't help with the bed thing. In theory, mine share, in reality, everyone and the cat end up in mine . There is nothing worse than DS2 waking up here - he can then party for a couple of hours.

I have the feeling I am trying to teach you how to skin a rabbit (my Nan's expression), but how about sitting them both down and looking at the bedtime situation. What if they can give you the solution? i.e. what if they can suggest how to make everyone's life better? If you think the bedtime thing is too big an issue, pick something that you could all discuss and see if you can sort it as a family, with you having right of VETO of course.

It has just come back to me - my parents split when I was 12 and we moved a few months afterwards. Things should have been better but we were all horrible to each other for a couple of months (just reacting) until my Mum pointed it out. It, then, settled down.

My boys have had a lot of change with the house move & separation happening at the same time. My Nan's death has affected them too, and I guess they have been picking up on my own stress level, which hasn't been great recently. Me being stressy will lead to them playing up more for attention, which then increases my stress, so it is a catch 22.
I am trying to sort it though, and felt my one to one time with DS1 was a good start tonight. He seemed to do a complete turn around this evening when we were in the garden. We don't get that much time without DS2, and he seemed to really enjoy it.

I could try to have a talk with them about the whole bedtime thing, I guess. I have been giving them warnings to calm down & then moving one of them into my bed until they settle.
It is all very draining!

nightynight - I've just noticed your post. That's awful that your ex was brainwashing your children like that.