Don't think time out is working anymore. How do you discipline your children?

[Pinkchampagne]

I have been using time out, but it no longer seems to be having much effect, especially with DS1 (nearly 8), who will refuse to go to the step/corner/his room & is probably getting a bit too old for this.
He also throws huge tantrums if I manage to get him in his room, where he thumps at the door etc & screams at me.
The time out seems to make the behaviour worse, but what is the alternative?

I have been trying the praising the positive etc, and I know you are meant to try to ignore the bad, but there is some bad behaviour (like scratching & marking his brother) that I cannot just ignore.

I have been on my own with them for the last 3 months, and am finding it quite hard to deal with the behaviour problems I have been having with the boys.

Oh poor you, I really feel for you.

Don't have an 8yr old ds myself, but, pocket money has worked really well for improving my dd's (6) behaviour. She's very motivated by money and has an idea of what she can buy with how much, but I guess the same kind of strategy would work with something else that motivates them, e.g. earning TV time. We wrote down together all the behaviours I wanted to see (listening, helping, walking next to me when out, using good manners etc) and all the things I didn't want to see (arguing, being rude, hurting siblings, not doing what I ask etc). She would get smiley faces for the good things and sad faces for the bad things. On Saturdays she would get 2 pounds if there were more happy than sad, nothing if more sad than happy, and 1 pound if equal happy and sad. It worked. Now we don't need the happy and sad anymore, I just warn her and then deduct 10p from the original 2 pounds. The warning is now usually enough and I hardly ever have to deduct money.

My 4yr old ds doesn't understand this but would also like to have money. He gets a coin in his money box (really small amount like 5p) for good things and one taken away for bad things. He's only allowed to spend it on Saturdays (I try to avoid attractive shops during the week) and what he buys doesn't always add up to what he has, but he gets the idea that he's earning the treat. I think he really enjoys the positive attention when he earns a coin. Maybe I'm paying for good behaviour, but it seems to be working so who cares.

Could you ask their Dad and your mum to do this too? As you said, it's difficult to carry it through unless you're all using the same approach. Maybe you could give them copies of the "rules" and charts to use. I have to make sure my dcs don't get too many treats, also family don't live near so they can't mess things up. At the moment we're staying with my mum & dad and their behaviour is noticeably worse. They are doing things I haven't seen for ages like shouting and arguing at length when they don;t get what they want. I think this is to do with being given way too many treats and the grandparents never saying no. It's ironic really, as you would think this would make them happy but it doesn't.

Apart from that, I think just being consistent (which it sounds like you are) and as organised as possible, so you don't keep having to keep going to shops where they'll ask for things.

Sorry this is so long. Let us know how you are getting on. It sounds like you're trying so hard with your boys.

I really sympathise with you Pinkchampagne, discipline is hard. If I send DS1 (7) for time out (usually for pinching DS2) then DS2 follows him so that defeats the point really! Time out does not change his behaviour and he often screams and argues with me before going (stress, stress).
Pocket money, however, is another matter. He loves having his money to be able to save, count and spend anyhow he likes and so I give him 'jobs' to earn it (fold his pyjamas, learn his spellings etc) and for consistant naughty behaviour he will lose some of it. It has really worked with him and the thing I have most noticed is that he does not pinch his brother as often (he loses 10p each time).
I haven't worked out what works with DS2 (4.5) yet as he refuses to do time out and is not overly bothered about his pocket money...

Thank you both.

There is little consistency where their dad & my mum are concerned. I feel they often spoil them too much & make it worse. I have tried to speak to mum, but it seems to fall on deaf ears, and she has been known to offer him gifts in the middle of him playing me up.

My boys tend to follow each other during time out too, even when one is having time out for hurting the other, so it can be a total waste of time!

I am going to try the pocket money thing with DS1, but not sure what to encourage DS2 with.

PC, I had a LOT of trouble with my sons after they came to me, and they had to re-adjust to my discipline instead of their father's.
ds1 was pretty disturbed for around a year, but he seems to have calmed down a lot recently.
I'd give up on time out, I always got the reaction you describe, so it never worked for us.
I use pocket money fines as punishment mostly.
Another thought - I have filled in on all the things they weren't allowed to have with their father, eg nice toys, nice bedrooms. A lot of Playmobil may have helped to calm ds1 down, as it is all terribly well behaved.

How I discipline:

• ground them
• take away something they like (reading at bedtime, later bedtime)
• ignore them, go to my bedroom and shut my door (now they're older)
• tell them how disappointed and sad I am that my daughters should behave that way and that I'm finding it hard to speak to them just now (that was the most recent one and it really has an effect)

Pink - Personally I'd back off with grandma and grandad. It's their 'job' to spoil the grandkids and give them an ear in times of trouble.
From what I've been reading, your boys sound devoted to each other. Help them with that. Intervene between physical battles but let them know you love them. Trust your 8yo and let him know you would like him to help YOU just as much as you would love to help him with his troubles. It's early days and hopefully with patience and time and jumping in and stopping your boys causing gruesome disfigurements to each other you CAN all come through this time and be so much better for it. You will get stronger and you and your boys will be capable of so much together. Hang on in there and it will come right.
Pointy - it's only been 3months since this family has split up from what I'm reading. Don't you think it's a bit harsh what you are suggesting. I would think they need time to adjust to the new situation.

Really, you think I'm harsh?

I don't think it's harsh at all. It's cleAR, direct, unambiguous, brief. I've never done stickers, time out, steps.

But I accept, pink and her boys have had a rough time.

Haven't read the whole thing. Can you take stuff out of his room like tv, gamestation etc and literally leave him with books?

It's a pain for you that your mum won't listen to your suggestions. However I do think kids work out what they can get away with and they'll learn that you have your rules. My kids know that I never put money in rides outside supermarkets and hardly ever ask, but if grandma and grandad are there it's another matter!

I suppose it depends how much time your kids spend with your mum.

Hmm - just re-read and not too harsh, I suppose , Pointy. Agree with the definite no-no on charts, steps and time-outs.
I think what I'm trying to say is that I feel this family really need to give each other the benefit of the doubt most of the time and accept that they are upset and normal rules need to be suspended for a while. I realise that doesn't mean the boys can get away with murder, that wouldn't be fair on them or anyone, but just to give themselves a bit of time.

They don't have a TV or playstation in their room. Most of their toys are kept in the conservatory, and I am reluctant to threaten to take toys away because their dad used to do this, and he has been known to actually take sack fulls to the dump on occassions.

Some of the behaviour is very attention seeking, like today when they came in with their shoes on & left mud on my carpet, so I asked them to take their shoes off as the carpet was getting dirty.
DS1 took off the shoe & wiped it hard across the carpet, so to leave a mark.
They are also constantly trashing their bedrooms & stripping their duvet covers off the duvets etc.
I am feeling totally run down & exhausted with it all, and don't know how best to deal with them sometimes.

Oh bloody hell, I would be annoyed if DS done that as well. Not accidental mud but deliberately doing it.

Maybe it's time for the newel post and dressing gown thingy. Actually I never said that as my poor antique knob got dented.

What about a lock on the bedroom door, from the outside.

I've never taken toys away. It's alwasy things like no reading at bedtime, intangible things and tomorrow everything's teh same as it was, new start.

Just sounds like your son is angry but part of that is he is very horrible to you and you don't deserve that, no matter how hard things are for your dc.

Have you ever told him, calmly but with real emotion in your voice, that you are hurt and disappointed by his nasty comments, that you don't expect your beautiful marvellous son to speak to you like that, you want a little time by yourself to calm down and then taken yourself away?

I think he's very mixed up atm. He turns from this kind of extreme bad behaviour, where he will act like he has no respect for me at all, to wanting to hug me & telling me he loves me.

I am finding it all so hard being on my own with them & being constantly challanged like this.
I can get quite depressed with it all.

Did you make him clean up the mud himself?

Yes, but that was a battle in itself

I can understand you get depressed with it all, it sounds draining.

Your son sounds very direct and honest about his feelings to you. So maybe it's worth doing the same with him. 'You mean the whole world to me but I feel so hurt when you say nasty comments, etc'. Just an honest non-judgmental expression of feelings.

This must be such a difficult time for you. Unfortunately however you are feeling, your boys are probably feeling much the same and they only really have you to show them the way. Is there anyone that you can rely on to at least give you a bit of time to yourself? Sounds like you need a bit of re-couping time yourself.

It must be very hard, pc .

I find DS1 and DS2 extremely hard work on occasions, so I have a slight inkling.

I tend to leave DS1 alone these days if he is in a stroppy mood. Which is a bit of a cop-out, I know.

The constant fighting and squabbling can be very wearing though, can't it?

I know they are probably pretty mixed up, and they are also probably picking up on the fact I am clearly stressed & testing for my reactions.

It has been a rough few months, and I lost my nan very suddenly last month too, so haven't been feeling at my strongest to deal with all this, although I have been trying.
The boys are no doubt picking up on all this.

I do try to have talks with DS & reassure him, but will try to talk to him in the way you describe, PD. It sounds like a good approach.

Very wearing, Dino, especially the physically hurting each other. They are both covered in scratches from their squabbles today.

I get a little time to myself on the occassions their dad takes them (like tonight!), but he works a lot, so this is the first time he's had them this week.

PC, just read your post about the shoe incident. It strikes me strongly that your sons have seen you being bullied by their father - they have got to adjust now to seeing you as the boss. It sounds like typical testing behaviour.

Could you do reverse time out - so you and Ds2 leave the room (and probably go and do something fun) and leave Ds1 to his fuming. It will also take away his audience in situations like the mud smearing shoe.

My understanding of time out isn't that the TO in itself is punishment - but a lack of attention and a chance for both sides to calm down.

DS1 age 11 was cheeky to me yesterday and I sent him out to paint the front fence and think about what he had said and done. 2hours later one weather proofed fence and a apology from DS1.