being a two year old

[Kathmary]

I've just looked at KMG's message from a while ago and it really struck a chord with me! My daughter is a bit of an emotional terrorist (she's nearly 5) but has always been pretty easy going, great with social skills and not at all agressive. My lovely son is nearly 3 and has all the social graces of a caveman - hitting other kids on the head, getting really cross with his sister and mum and dad - and lately throwing himself onto the floor at very regular intervals in a fit of rage. He is SO different from my daughter and like KMG I have basked in my own (yes lets admit it slight smugness) reflected parental glory - it is not nearly so easy with Tom and at crunch times like morning and pre-bed he can be so stroppy and hard to negotiate with. We keep hanging in there, but it isn't easy!

Kathmary, Your posting really made me laugh. That sounds so like my experience. My eldest (2.5years) is the sweetest, most laid back child I know. We used to joke that he appeared to be skipping the terrible twos as we never saw a tantrum or strop. Of course this was due to our wonderful parenting. Then number 2 turned up. What a difference! He looks like an angel but we swear he inherited all of our eldest's tantrums and started the terrible twos early (at one) to wipe the smiles of our faces! According to my Mother I was just as bad, so maybe it's in the genes!

I do have a theory that second children, in families where the children are born close together, have to fight harder for what they want and become determined (some would say bloodyminded) as a result. Our two are only 15 months apart and I've seen it with friends as well.

Anyway, glad I'm not alone!

Hmonty, I couldn't agree more or youngest can be a little horror, and the eldest spends most of her time being chilled out. Two completely different children, theres only 18 months between them.

Yeah, Hmonty, I think it's right about second children. My two are 22 months apart, but really Maddie (my firstborn) has such superior communication skills she just outbids poor caveman Tom at all points. He has to be very assertive (I think that would be the polite way of putting it) to get a look in. It is very funny though because even though he can't communicate nearly as well as she could at his age he CAN wind his sister up something rotten! When she says "I'm Milo" (or whatever) he just says "you're not!" Pandemonium. There was a funny incident at my Mums a few months ago; Maddie was just muscling in on his play and not letting him get a word in constantly and he got really fed up. He picked up the lid of a jigsaw box and gave her a calculated pop on the head. Of course we had to deal with it, but later on my Mum and I thought what an understandable reaction it was and couldn't help feel "good for Tom!" He is also suffering right now because Maddie has just started School and he is missing her and wants to be there too. So he says "I am four!" about 100 times a day and gets very cross when you try to point out he isn't. They do play together very happily sometimes and she is great with him when he's having a moody (oh only 50 times a day)!

Yes it's definitely a second-child thing, especially if they are close in age. (22 months here). What I find hard at the moment is making the younger one realise what is OK at home, may not be elsewhere ... Does that make sense? We now tend to have a fair degree of 'argie-bargie' going on at home, and they find their own level of squabbling, and we pretty much leave them to it, as long as they don't get too agressive. (Youngest is nearly 2 now). But a couple of times recently the younger one has given one of his play-mates a (gentle) shove, as a means of communication, and suddenly that doesn't seem at all OK anymore. Does anyone have an angle on that one?

here's another vote for the second child thing. Mine are also 22 months apart, and my eldest is very laid back about everything. The youngest is a completely different matter! She started the 'terrible twos' at about 9 months, and has never really come out of them (she's 3 1/2). She is ok with other kids, & at nursery, but at home she still thinks its ok to throw a tantrum if she doesn't get her own way. One of the problems is that my eldest daughter is so soft she doesn't like to see her upset, and so is likely to give her what she wants just for a quiet life. I have actually found myself telling eldest just to push her back when she starts (and there is quite a significant size difference!). She now anounces to visitors that she's 'mummys little horror' and grins.
One final thing - I too would love to go to the loo on my own after 5 1/2 years! We have at least got to the stage where I can go in the room and shut the door, but it's usually to cries from 2 little girls outside - 'have you finished yet, are you doing a poo?' Ah well, at least they've got no hangups about bodily functions!
Finally, perhaps I shouldn't say too much about 2nd kids, coz I am one (18 months after big sis) and both my mum & my husband say she's just like ME.

Am I doing something wrong? I only have 1 child (3.5) and he is exactly like all your no 2's (oops! No pun intended!) I wouldn't mind so much if I had 1 'nice' child and then him... His behaviour had definitely gone downhill over the last few months and he is a grumpy little #@!* especially if we have to wake him after having a nap in the day (see other thread about 'power naps'). If he doesn't like what you are telling him, he screams or hits or has a complete paddy. Is this normal??? Needless to say we are in 2 minds about having another!

Misty, if you look at the other comments, we all had number 2 fairly quick after having the 'nice quiet' one. Definately in my case, if it had been the other way round there would have been a much longer wait! After having the 2 kids I did, I've decided that I either got it all right the first time, & all wrong the second, or that these little 'uns have more personality from the word go than they are given credit for! Don't be put off having another, I know a few people who've had the horror first & the angel second!

Isn't it weird? You'd think that having a smaller gap would mean worsened behavior of #1 as they were having to share you - I sort of thought the older they were, the more you could reason with them!! Realise that it depends on the personality of the child a lot... I definitely won't let it put me off tho, I sure it's just 'a phase' (how I love that description!)

Might I add? I dont think its an age gap thing, My eldest and middle one are 3 years apart, and she- middle one- is a hell kitten! She is terrifyingly charming, yet what Imo wants Imo will get, somehow, and she doesnt give in!
No 3 is already starting to paddy as you remove the pc wire from her tiny hands.......
Why is it the angelic looking ones are the worst, Ive seen it time and time again!

HELP!! I have a run away two year old. Whenever I get her out of the pushchair she wants to run off. She will walk nicely when holding her hand, but if you stop, she's off. Also when I pick up my other daughter from playgroup all other children her age are angels they just stand around by mummy/granny etc. I've tried putting reins on her but she just throws a wobbler on the floor. She's only just two but has been doing it since she started to walk! When will it end?

Kind of changing the subject briefly, watch Horizon tonight, 8pm BBC2. Its about children with explosive behaviours and what sounds like an incredibly cruel and bizarre way of treating them. The `treatment' involves breaking their spirit by keeping the children within three feet of their parents day and night for a minimum of four weeks. The slightest disobedience and the child is pinned to the floor. The Dr involved reckons the child's behaviour improves by 80%. It sounds bloody scary and positively barbaric to me, but will watch the programme out of sheer, horrified curiosity. Look forward to your thoughts too.

Emmam

I think sheer horrified curiosity is right on that score that sounds awful - mind you remember pavlovs dog you can probably train childrens behaviour completely with tricks like that - but then what will they grow up like and how will they treat their children. Not one I will be trying no matter how desperate.

I am just trying out "Toddler tamings" Time out routine - although the screams are becoming more piercing and high pitched and now she has learnt to say "Mummy" in a very pitiful voice (my neighbours must think I am awful!) I feel like the bitch from hell (she's only 20 months and used to an absolute angel)

Yeah funny that, they all used to be angels didn't they! Well apart from 2nd children that is!!

Sorry to be pedantic but in my TV mag is says this Horizon programme is on at 9pm tonight.

Oops, got it wrong, it was 9pm. Did you see it? Blimey, it had me close to tears. It was awful. I think the 12 year old was too old to undergoe this `treatment' and the 6 year old just broke my heart. I can see what the doctor was trying to do - in a way sleep training is about breaking habits and changing routines, but this was too the extreme. Pinning down a six year old on the floor sounds more like a case for Social Services than tough love. My husband reckoned that the 12 year old should be sent to military school, but I thought probably same strict routine, but different people.

Then again, I guess desperate people seek desperate measures. I hope I am never that desperate.

Missed it. But does anyone remember the controversy surrounding pin-down in local authority care? Is this really "tough love" or something else entirely?
Tlb, our son is 20 months now too. He's a bit cheeky but not what I would call really difficult yet. I sometimes get paranoid that we are over-indulging him. Would read our copy of "Toddler Taming" to check up but it has mysteriously disappeared. When are you giving your daughter time out? What has she been up to? Do you find it is working?

last nights programme moved me to tears. I can understand how desperate those parents were but that psychologist was sick. Witholding affection to break the kids is barbaric and holding them in a lock on the floor disturbing too. i do belive on parents being in charge and setting boundaries but that was not the way to do it

I wish I'd seen the programme, meant to but forgot about it. The reviewer in today's Guardian seems to share most of your thoughts:

Horizon: Children Beyond Control (BBC2)

Children are getting increasingly violent, apparently, and someone called Doctor Federici has the answer. Parents, he says, need to take control. Namely, by grabbing their offspring firmly in an arm lock and sitting on them until their personalities have been wiped into the shag-pile.

Federici's bonkers theory is that dysfunctional children need to be broken down, a bit like recruits to the SAS. The bewildered faces of kids and parents, twisted on the carpet in combat, suggested that the only beneficiary was the deeply deranged Federici.

Horizon was a sad indication of how estranged many parents now feel from their kids. If they want some respite from the domestic war, I find a session with Postman Pat works wonders.

My youngest was 4 on Tuesday, he has a great imagination, last week whilst we were in Clarks Shoe Shop and bank balance slowly depleting!, he told the assistant that we had a shark!. yes we have a shark in the toilet, assistant said to him where does it live?, in the loo was the reply, is he a good shark?, no I was on the loo this morning and he tried to bite my willie!!!!. I could have crawled under the chair, unfortunately I am a bit big, but, he was then asked what did you do with the shark?, hit him with the loo brush!!. We also have dragons in the forestry round our farm, but they are away on holiday at the moment, apparently to France on their bikes, we also have a sock monster who pinches all the socks in the washing basket. He is a right wee blether and never misses a thing, but can be a little horror, I cannot imagine holding any of my children down on the ground. As Robbie says, a bit of time out and quiet with a book or colouring in can work wonders, or I've even walked away on several occassions. Children should not be a battleground, it should be an enjoyable time, as they grow up so quickly, as in my youngest is being registered for Bursery next week, after the summer he has playgroup and nursery. I will miss him, as for the past 6 years I've had both or one at home, what will I do with my time ......, ah yes the man eating cupboard at the top of the stairs is needing sorted out.

No he is not being registered for Bursery, he is being registered for NURSERY!!!!, ooooops not only is this a very bad hair day, but a bad spelling day.

What a brilliant imagination your 4 year old has! You really made me laugh! I just love the mad things that kids say.

One of my hubby's colleagues said their daughter a few years back when she was little said at the supermarket checkout `Mummy, can't we have a big tin of beans this week and you just have a small bottle of whiskey'.

Not what you need in Tescos on a Friday evening with everyone and their aunt in the queue!!

Have a good weekend all - I'm off to pick up my little monster from his grandmas!

I thought the same as you Emmam about the 12 year old, and trying to get any 12 year old to sit on their mother's lap is a bit ridiculous, yes and I wondered what the social services would think if they watched it! My sympathies were mainly with the parents for having to resort to such measures.
They said that the boy had gone through psychological help and had done nothing, but I thought they obviously didn't have the right person on it, they desperately need to find someone who he can trust.

Who knows what potential damage it is doing to an already extra emotional little girl. Heartbreaking.

My 14 month year old is getting totally impossible to dress. The screams you get are on par with mummy having suddenly turned into one of Tiggers house monsters! the distraction thing doesn't seem to work anymore, and Federici would be impressed with the total body lock I am using to get his clothes on. Help, somebody??

How about offering your son the choice of clothes to wear? Get two jumpers out and ask him which one he wants to wear - he might be happier to put the clothes on if he feels he has a choice in what he is going to wear.

My son can be monster when it comes to putting his coat on to go out. Quite often I will just say fine, then we'll go out without it' - 30 seconds outside and he soon wants his coat on. My mum is not impressed by this, but I'm not prepared to be messed around by a 2 year old. Its not like I'd let him freeze, or make him stand outside in the wet without shoes on, but I think a lesson in consequences if he doesn't do something can be valuable. I know plenty of kids that won't wear gloves, but my son will willingly hold out his hands for his gloves. I think this is because he has learnt that gloves keep his hands warm and this is a good thing, its also his decision as to whether he wants warm hands or cold hands. I don't fret about what others might say if we do go out inappropriately' dressed - I've seen far worse, such as mums in thick coats, scarves, hats and their kids in t-shirts!

Hopefully this is just a phase Lil and your son will soon find other ways in which to assert himself. Good luck.

Lil, we're going through exactly the same with our 14 month old, its horrendous sometimes, especially putting clothes on after bathtime. I just keep repeating to myself "it's a phase, it's a phase!".

I agree with Emmam, about the 'fine don't put your coat on' and then they realise its cold and why we want it on. Used that many a time with the older one. You can end up having too many battles by the front door as you're trying to get out!