So, why do you wait until 6months+ before attempting cc/cio?

[cruisemum1]

I have absolutely no intention of doing this (just yet anyway) but my dh is always banging on about it and I want/need to be able to give him a real reason other than my protestestations that it is damaging at too young an age as they do not understand anything other than they are being abandoned etc.

There are people who think that leaving your baby to cry, even if you are going in to "reassure them" is very, very bad for their development.

Controlled crying WORKS, in that your baby will learn that no matter what he does, his needs will not be met. c.f. the NSPCC advert which says something like "Tom is a very good baby, he doesn't cry because he knows that if he does, no one is coming."

I would advise anyone who is thinking about this to discuss it with anyone who has studied infant mental health or psychology. There is absolutely NO evidence which proves that sleep training of this sort does not have a negative impact on babies. There is increasing evidence that this can cause long-term psychological damage.

I told this to an MNer recently and I have not mentioned it before, but I had a good friend who lost his baby on the first night of letting his baby cry it out. He was 8 months old. You never know why your baby is crying. I would never, ever leave a baby to cry and would never advise any other parents to do so. Parents may decide to do this for whatever reason, but I make no apology for trying to persuade them that it is the wrong thing to do.

No,I wouldnt have kept at it if it hadnt worked quickly either and I agree it doesn't work with some kids. They do have 'relapses', when teething, ill or upset for some other reason and then you have to cut them some slack obviously. I had to go through the process a few times over the year and a half I did it.

Morningpaper - I'm very sorry about your friend's baby. I have never let my babies 'cry it out' and wouldn't advise that to anyone.

I must also add, that dispite me hating cc, at 10 month olld of ms, we did it, after a good routine,all went awol, thanks to HV advice of stopping nightfeeds...fuck, I know I shoud have never listened to her...but I stupidly did...yes, until that ms woke up in the night, but nightfeeds came and gone so fast, it didn't actually bother me...but fter a night of trying water instead of boobyjuice my ms was not gonna forgive me and was anightmare no matter what method I used, even at first sleeping...but it harmed his wellbeing, because he looked poorly, he was tired and ratty and miserable...that was the point when we decided to try cc and it worked fabulously...it was horrible, but the longest he ever ied was 15 minutes for onces..for Yannic it obviously worked and for me was the right thing to do, for him as much as for us...but with es and ys, not the same great kind of idea!

Can I just add, that a neglected in the true sense of way Baby is a completely different story to a very muhc loved and shown that it's loved BAby...I am personally the best example, even if it is heart say!

whatI mean is, you can not connect "MILES" the Baby on NSPCA add, to a Baby that has been through cc...Miles suffered true neglect, not well meant parenting!

Simple neurology - until their frontal lobe is sufficiently developed they will not "learn" what you want them to. Takes all the emotion out of the decision if the best answer is "it just won't work".

Oh, MorningPaper, that's awful! Poor thing and poor parents

What To Expect In The First Year has a shocking bit in it about CIO at 6mo - says something like "if the crying gets too much you, turn down the monitor".

FFS.

MP

hunker, I was really, really shocked when I read those bits in the book.

I'd say that, as well as him not being developmentally ready, until a certain age I just didn't know my DS well enough to be confident about why he was crying. I suppose I have used CC to an extent in the last month or so (he's 29 weeks now), but it hasn't been a deliberate decision to use it as a "method" and it certainly hasn't been for my own convenience. The fact is that some babies, my own included, sometimes just need to cry and whinge a bit before they'll drop off to sleep. My own approach was that I would go back to him very soon and pick him up - if he continued to cry and I knew he was fed and changed, I would assume in the first instance that he was tired and put him back in his cot. 9 times out of 10 he'd then drop off to sleep within a few minutes. If the crying seemed to be calming down I'd leave him for a while. If it started escalating I'd go to him straight away and get him up again if nothing else would calm him. This approach was the only way I could get proper daytime naps established which he desperately needed.

Just a word of warning though. I recently left my DS for maybe 2 or 3 minutes when he started an angry sounding cry soon after I put him down. When I did go up I found he'd flipped onto his tummy (for the first time) and was extremely cross .

MP - just read your post. That's truly shocking. TBH, although as I said I have been known to leave DS crying (or more like shouting) for a while (because I know if I go back to him it will make things worse), I truly believe I would find it impossible not to go to him if he sounded distressed.

OK, shall tell my sad stupid but true story again...yes, I am 36 years old, and have some behavioural probs (need to rock myslef to sleep)...when young I spend 3 month, from 3-6 month old in Hospital...imagine 70's and nuns..yup right, strict routine, yadda yadda yadda..no true contact to my mum until released...I lost weight, even though I was fed by tube, so theoretically calories went in adequately...I was fed, changed and wot not bny the rotor of the time....regualr...no love, and caring feelings were, most probably expressed...anyway...like I said I did loose weight, and I did start a rocking to sleep habit, not broken even now.....but, in the end effect, even if not meant it was neglective care, without love for 3 month, but I do think, the same care, wiht true showing of love and cuddeling wouldn't have had the same effect...which is why I say you can't comapre "Miles" and the ordinary Kid raise with love no matter what rules!

Sorry, third post in succession. I find the different approach of my mum's generation really interesting. She's always going on at me in the vein of "oooh, you know he's learning fast that he'll get attention if he cries like that". FGS, as nearly4bob said, as if they can "learn" something like that at 6 months?!

yopu know, my inlaws have never really trustesd me, I think, even though they adore my es, and he was a pain in the arse when A bABY TODDLER, LOL...ANYWYA, TODAY, MY MS WENT IN, BEFORE ANYONE ESLE, BY COINCEDENCE, AN D SAID..i AM SORRY FOR LAST TIME...AT THE TIME , THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS SAYING, NOT BEING CLEAR AND NOT N CONTEXT...FAST FOWARD...SAME DAY... (ooops, caps)...evening, me and ms talkng, saying just how good behaved he was, ow proud and happy I was and how it reflected in my behaviour he said it again, in context, when I told teh inlaws that that was what he said, they were soooo proud and all I could say is, he is 4 and he is now getting the concept of others feelings, starting to care in that way...that is such an achievement

Oh my god, morningpaper. I dont have the words to reply to that. In a sense, whenever a baby cries there is always a reason, and we should never presume that we know what that reason is. Many a time, Ive thought I was sure that I knew what was wrong with DD when she was crying ( thinking she was tired or whatever), and Ive been suprised to realise she was much hotter than I thought, for example. Since having a baby myself, I can see why its such a strange thing to do to leave a baby to cry. Mums stress levels must go through the roof for one thing. If my babys screaming in the car-seat, I have to pull over because I know Im going to crash? Were designed like that, arent we.
My parents generation were babies who had to cry it out (age 55 or so now), and I <span class="italic">know</span> my dad had to cry it out after hearing my grans advice on babies.
Put it this way, it hasn`t done him any good if his mental health is anything to judge by.

Fand Z - just read your link. thanks

Cruisemum, you are welcome. I find it can be useful to have research to back up your own instincts as a mother, if people are trying to persuade you into doing something you are not happy with.

malaleche the whole point that we are making against cc is that in the 2,4 r 6 minutes that you are not in the room a baby of less than 9-12 months his crying because you are gone and they do not realise yet that this means you are not gone forever. They stop when you go in with relief that you are there after all and as soon as you are gone again they think that is is GONE!!! If they are not aware that you are coming back I am not sure how that is teaching anything, they stop crying because nobody is there and they are self preserving and going to sleep not because they feel safe and secure in the knowledge that you are coming back again but in fact the complete opposite.
Yes cc crying works but really I wonder at what expense? With depression and mental health problems on the rise how can we say that being left to cry as children did us no harm? I am aware before anyone jumps on me that we can't say it is the cause but we still cannot prove that it did no harm at all.

I tried CC with my youngest. What a nightmare. After two nights of going in and out to dd, by which time she'd vomited profusely and I had to change her and the cot, and dd being in a terrible state next day, bags under her eyes, trembling and clingy, I decided CC was not something I was prepared to go with. It's one of my real parenting regrets, I wish I'd never done it.

sue - me too. did itonce at 14 weeks (pu/pd) awful. tried again last week (dh's idea ) #Never again.....

Cruisemum,

I'm probably going against the grain here - but I think I did a form of CC when ds was very young - like less than 6/7 weeks old. I didn't know anything about CC at the time (wasn't on mumsnet then!) but when putting him down for the night I'd leave him to fuss for a wee bit, often standing outside the door and timing before going into him, reassuring and settling him and then going out again. After a few nights of this he really settled into a sleep routine and has continued to be a great sleeper.

I really wanted to say that I think there's a big difference between crying because they want something (food, heat, comfort, a new nappy) and general fussing before going to sleep. I wouldn't leave ds to 'cry it out' if I hear a certain type of cry, even now when he's nearly 11 months. However, for us doing what we did really worked - as I said at the time I hadn't read much and was making decision based on what I did know - that babies need sleep, that getting into sensible routines helps and that I also needed my sleep. I've since read a fair bit of the research, and I am convinced that emotional damage can be done by leaving babies to cry - for a while I worried that I'd damaged ds.

However while he's probably too young to really show much, the evidence in terms of his behaviour etc is that he's fine - better than fine: a really happy child. Obviously his happiness and contentment is in a broader context - parents who love him and spend a lot of time with him, good food, stable surroundings with lots of interaction with family and friends who also love him, a routine with plenty of flexibilty...

I'm waffling on now and possibly making ds sound like the best baby in the world and like I think I'm the best mum - obviously NOT!! My real point is, actually I don't even know what my point is anymore, sorry!

i thought about doing cc but decided i couldnt so went for pick up put down.i wanted to be next to him to help him and pick him up to show i love him.when i was thinking about it.people were saying,he'll never learn,got to be cruel to be kind etc,about my little man!but then some say pu pd is form of cc?
3andnomore and morningpaper-both horrible sad stories.3andnomore,do you find it effects the way you parent?