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Behaviour/development

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So, why do you wait until 6months+ before attempting cc/cio?

82 replies

cruisemum1 · 16/02/2007 17:55

I have absolutely no intention of doing this (just yet anyway) but my dh is always banging on about it and I want/need to be able to give him a real reason other than my protestestations that it is damaging at too young an age as they do not understand anything other than they are being abandoned etc.

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Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
alex8 · 16/02/2007 17:58

surely that is reason enough?

cruisemum1 · 16/02/2007 18:01

i agree. just wanted some validation...

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adath · 16/02/2007 18:50

Well the man whose name escapes me right now sorry that developed the controlled crying techniques and wrote the book on it himself actually says not to us controlled crying on children under a year old because it is not until between 9 months and a year that children have a sense of continuity, the realisation that when you leave the room that you have not fallen off the planet you are just out of sight and you will come back.

Until then if they cannit see, smell, or hear you they think you are gone for good.

TrinityRhino · 16/02/2007 18:51

dr ferber wasn't it?

FrannyandZooey · 16/02/2007 18:54

It's actually not recommended until age 3 or over:

controlled crying and infant mental health

adath · 16/02/2007 19:15

Yes future studies have shown that it shouldn't be used unti over 3 as it can affect mental health. I was just making the point that even the person who made the technique said it should not be used on small babies and why.
I don't personally agree with it at all merely passing on info.

cruisemum1 · 16/02/2007 19:38

thanks, this is great. Just gathering ammo!

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RachelG · 16/02/2007 20:13

Yes, just to add, everything I've read says that 6 months is the absolute youngest, and then it should only be undertaken with the supervision of a professional sleep clinic. Most books say a year. Personally I'd never do it.

If a child isn't developmentally ready, all they learn from cc is that their cries are ignored. It is crucial for babies to know that the adults who care for them will look after them - feed them, cuddle them, keep them warm etc. If they are left to cry, the learn that their pleas for help are ignored. Sure they stop crying, but only because they've learned that there's no point. Then they cry themselves to sleep through sheer exhaustion.

That's what I've read anyway, and I've read a LOT of books about sleep (have a very poor sleeping DS).

OldieMum · 16/02/2007 20:26

"Why Love Matters: how affection shapes a baby's brain", by Sue Gerhardt, is a summary of recent research on neurological development in infants. This research shows that the brains of children subjected to frequent stress (such as from being left to cry for long periods) actually develop differently from those of children who are not. When a baby is stressed, its system is flooded with cortisol (the hormone underlying the 'fight-or-flight' response to stress). This temporarily suppresses other bodily functions, particularly the immune system, but also growth etc. In babies subjected to frequent stress of this kind, the system underlying stress responses (the part of the brain controlling release of cortisol) starts to behave abnormally, either through being oversensitive to stress or being undersensitive. In either case, research suggests that children with abnormal stress responses may display behavioural problems later in life, even into adulthood. These stress responses appear to be set by about the age of six months. Personally, I would never do controlled crying. The risk just seems too high.

3andnomore · 16/02/2007 20:27

has ferber changed that then...I have a older copy somewhere (have to read all the controversial books just to be able to engage in discussion about the teachings, lol)....and in that he says still 6month up....like I said old copy.

3andnomore · 16/02/2007 20:28

Oh, also...it has been found it's not great for a newborns brain to scream, and also, they can get mighty hot screaming, which surely isn't good!

cruisemum1 · 16/02/2007 20:44

Crikey! I am so glad I am unable to bear the sound of my beautiful son's crying then! I have been tempted to do the crying thing out of desperation on occasion and did try it once but I found it so traumatic for ds and me that I don't think I will ever be able to do it again (unless I am so sleep deprived/desperate). I just think that anything that causes that much stress to you and your child MUST be wrong. I shall tell dh with renewed gusto!

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katelyle · 16/02/2007 20:46

I do think controlled crying is pretty awful at any age, but for a 6 month old who has really got no sense of time or continuance it's downright cruel (why don't I just get off the fence and say what I think!) Babies cry - it's what they do. They grow out of it. Their parents get haggard and sleep deprived - but that's in the job description. I really don't see how getting into a maga battle with a child is going to help. Play musical beds, co-sleep, do anything that makes life easy, and remember it really is for a very short time. It'll feel like 20 years, but most children (apart, I may say from my dd!) are sleeping through the night by 3-ish. And remember, they are crying because they love you and want you and need you, not because they are manipulative, malicious or naughty. Honest.

cruisemum1 · 16/02/2007 20:47

katelyel - you are so right

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TrinityRhino · 16/02/2007 20:50

I wholeheartedly agree with Katelyle

emkana · 16/02/2007 20:54

a round of applause for katelyle
sums up my thoughts beautifully

KezzaG · 16/02/2007 20:54

I just wanted to chip in here as i was so upset at the whole though of cc I could never bring myself to do it. It has made me feel so much better to read all the wealth of information available that does not advocate. I too tried it and it was so upsetting and I genuinely believe it does not work long term.

My ds was a truely appalling sleeper and there were times when I just did not know how I could carry on. Finally at 2.4years he is old enough to understand a bit of reason and through a start chart for staying in bed, bedtime chats about how big boys sleep on their own and lots of patience he now sleeps through.

Stand firm and I hope your dh changes his mind.

Pruni · 16/02/2007 20:58

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KezzaG · 16/02/2007 21:04

Dr Sears

cruisemum1, just a bit more info on understanding sleep patterns in babies and so on. I liked it.

cruisemum1 · 16/02/2007 21:09

I love these mesages. The reaffirm what in my heart I already knew. my ds is too precious to leave to scream. he needs me.

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malaleche · 16/02/2007 21:32

(Sorry to dive in here with what reads like a rant, have added lots of smileys to try and lessen the impact, actually so many winks it looks like ive got something in my eye...) Errmm, sorry but isn't the whole point of cc that you're NOT letting them cry themselves to sleep, you're going in every two minutes to let them know you're still there for them? If your kid is still crying after you've been back in 3 or 4 times with between 2 and 6 minutes between each visit I think you should forget it and try again after a month. Maybe I've just been lucky or maybe I'm harder than most mums but cc works a dream with my kids and doesn't seem to have caused any psychological damage to dd1, now 3. Quite the opposite, she is a confident, happy child who knows that bedtime is bedtime and 'no messing about'! (She also knows that if she gets up in the middle of the night we won't be cross with her).
Have just started cc with 5 mth old this week. Was tired of being woken 3 times a night (she was only waking once the month before) so decided to ignore her if it was before 3am or after 5am and only bfeed once between those hours. She sleeps in a moises basket inside a cot jammed up against our bed. After 2 nights of the usual 2 or 3 awakenings, a bit of cying and grumbling when I ignored her and falling back to sleep after 20 minutes she now only wakes once between 3am and 5am, has a bfeed and sleeps till 7.30am. Once I'd sorted that I decided we could do without the average of 3 awakenings between bedtime at 7.30pm and my bedtime at about midnight too, so did cc for two evenings. She cried for 2 minutes at a time and fell asleep having already stopped crying, after about 8 minutes in total. After each 2 minutes I'd go in, tuck her in a bit or stroke her face and quietly say 'sleepy time now' (or whatever nonsense you prefer ) and left, no eye contact or feeling bad or getting nervous - they can sense it you know! . She knows she hasn't been abandoned and I'll come if she cries but she learns that I'm not going to get her up again. Frankly, she'll spend longer crying while im trying to hang up the washing or go to the bathroom during the day...
Why is it ok to do cc with a 7mo and not a 6mo? And surely it's far more traumatic for a 3 yo's cries to be 'ignored'. Richard Ferber's book is the only one I've read and I did cc with dd1 at 3 mths, (can't remember what minimum age he recommends but don't think i'd have done it at 3mths if he'd said it wasnt a good idea as the rest of his theory/experience seemed intelligent enough to me at the time). After 3 nights she would lie quite peacefully after max 2 - 6 minutes crying, tailing off into grumbling, with me going in every 2 mins and then fall asleep by herself, she certainly didnt 'cry herself to sleep through sheer exhaustion' - I'm not a monster!
Have just read Frannyandzooeys link and I agree: (quotes from link)"Controlled crying involves leaving the infant
to cry for increasingly longer periods of time before
providing comfort". I'd say to a max of about 15-30 minutes in total broken into smaller segments and going in between times. "AAIMHI is concerned that the widely practiced
technique of controlled crying is not consistent with
what infants need for their optimal emotional and
psychological health, and may have unintended
negative consequences.
Background to AAIMHI?s Concerns;
This statement is premised on an understanding of
crying to mean crying that indicates distress, either
psychological or physical, rather than the ?fussing?
that many babies do in settling or adjusting to
different circumstances." Yes, I would stop if your baby is screaming rather than just crying or fussing. I would certainly never let them get into a 'state'.
"Infants are more likely to develop secure attachments
when their distress is responded to promptly,
consistently and appropriately." 2 minutes seems pretty prompt to me, since you're timing 2, 4 or 6 mins it's consistent and it's appropriate imo not to get them up if you're sure they dont need changed, fed burped or are not tired and have had lots and lots of cuddling.
"Where it is used recommendations should be for
exercising caution and playing safe. For example,
paying attention to level of distress rather than
number of minutes baby has to be left to cry, or not
continuing with any technique if it does not feel
right." Exactly. If you are going in after 2,4 then 6 minutes (or 2,2,4,4,4,6, or whatever) and baby is not asleep within about 20 mins forget it and try again next month. Having said all that I know some kids just cry more than others and as I said before, maybe I'm just lucky.
Just want to add that I think babies and children are creatures of habit and if you dont break a pattern for them they'll just keep to it."Where parental stress due to infant crying may lead
to risk of abuse it is essential that parents be linked
with social supports and therapeutic intervention." Well exactly, if I didnt get 3 hours to myself at the end of the day and a (half)decent night's sleep who knows what heinious acts I could have commited by now. Lord knows I'm not saying being a parent doesn't involve some sacrifice but...excuse me while I go and remove sparkly tiara from blissfully sleeping 3 yo's head and gaze fondly at blissfully sleeping 5 mth old and put my feet up and turn the video on with the hand that isn't holding the chocolate...
Good luck.

aviatrix · 16/02/2007 21:50

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malaleche · 16/02/2007 21:53

Here I go again... to sum up: KezzaG "I too tried it and it was so upsetting and I genuinely believe it does not work long term."
It won't work if you try it once, you have to perservere, it usually takes 2 or 3 or 4 nights (imo that's not 'long-term') and if it doesn't you're either not being strict with yourself or you need to sort other issues first. For example enough feeds in the afternoon and evening to see them through the night. Or appropriate naptimes and length of naps.
By being strict I mean use a stopwatch or timer, it helps take your mind off it. And don't get upset or nervous, you'll get nowhere like that. (It does feel awful the first night but then when it works ...)Repeat the mantra "it's for his/her own good" (yeah, ok, I know the chocolotae and the video beckon too but they (dd/ds) do need to get into the habit of a good night's sleep too don't they? Oldiemum - surely the kids in that book must be very deprived kids in a third world orphanage or something? I read that kissing a baby actually has some chemical benefit in its brain development or something and even if it didnt i still wouldnt be able to stop kissing my dc all day long!

aviatrix · 16/02/2007 22:01

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KezzaG · 16/02/2007 22:04

what I meant was I tried it for 3 nights and it did work, but within a week he was back to waking again. I though it had worked but it never seemed to work long term for me.

It must work for some children but i really dont think it is a cure all. I know 2 mums who have 2 children and both are advocates of cc. It worked easily for their first ones, but not for their second. I personally wouldnt keep going with it if it didnt work quickly, if I didnt feel happy with it, and I didnt think it was right for my child.