Pasta jar, star charts, naughty step... NOTHING has ANY effect on dd2 and I DESPAIR

[emkana]

She really winds me up so much and I just don't know what to do anymore! No matter what I try it just has no effect on her. She just will not do as she's told. I started the pasta jar yesterday and was very hopeful but then today when I said "I'll have to take a pasta away from you for that" she just said excitedly "Oh please can I take it out Mum?"

She has odd moments when she'll cry and say "I'll be a good girl now" but two minutes later she's up to something again...

what can I DO, I just hate it that we're permanently at loggerheads!

She's 3.6 btw.

Thank God for this thread! Just read a bit more of it and feel a bit more normal now. It's so easy to think you are a crap Mother, when really we are probably all facing the same issues and dealing with them in the same way.

I know this won't help much, but mediate with the old mummy mantra
@it is only a stage, it is only a stage, it is only a stage'

Then get a huge glass of wine and chill for a bit

Seriously IMHO under 5 is too young for the pasta jar, they don't really understand the build up to a reward type thing for good behaviour and taking away for bad behaviour. It is instant gratification or noting. In some ways I like the idea of swapping pasta for chocoltae, eg if you are naughty mummy gets one of your buttons, however they still don't really have that concept of time.

Time out is not just a punishment for your child, it is TIME OUT for both of you. So if they do play in their rooms, fine, at least they are not winding your up and you geteh chance to calm down.

My kids obey me now (most of the time) and yes I have smacked, didn't work for dd2, worked on dd1. Time out, worked on DD2, not on DD1???

However the thing that worked the best was taking something away that is precious to them. eg their fave barbie. Take it away, let them see you give it to a charity shop, see you mean it. That is VITAL that and consistancy. I started a thread recently about ripping heads of barbies or threatening to burn fave toys! I was a joke with my kids, but underneath it all, they believe I will do it. They remember me taking something away they liked!!

Whew,
Thank god i'm not the only one.
Just about to start a pasta jar but with marbles or something else in to be exchanged for Smarties at the weekend- for not biting nails. Also for not waking us up in the middle of the night because she's 'lonely' (DD 3.4). Today we made a poster with photos of all the family to put on the wall beside her bed so she doesn't feel lonely in the middle of the night and am setting up a new nightlight she can turn on herself tomorrow. Tho she's quite young she understands the idea of the pasta jar or rewards for certain behaviour. E.G. in the autumn she got an icecream every weekend when she hadnt wet her bed all week, we did that for a few weeks. She's been dry a few weeks now. (I know it might seem strange to do it for something like that but I was sure she could stay dry and was just being lazy/needed something to remind her). You'll know yourself if your kid is ready to understand the reward at the end of timescale thing.
I think it also helps that she rarely gets any sweets so the thought of a few Smarties is really something!
Also, I try not to punish with things she should like I mean sending her to her room - why would I want being in her room to be a punishment? Or threatening to leave her in the dark/alone somewhere - waking up alone in the dark at night then becomes a punishment doesnt it?
Have to go, mumsnet is causing me to neglect the very people im writing about!

Oh, huge sympathies. I think it's very hard this time of year. Been a long winter, Spring still a long way off, still dark evenings blah blah. I honestly think it makes things worse. YOu get ground down even more easily. It's the frustration that's the worst thing IME. re the bath, if I cannot be bothered with tears and resistence I remove the plug (I broke the chain by accident [blus] ) and walk away. No water and no mummy and she can't get out fast enough! My dd is not yet two but insists on dressing herself which is great, but often frustrating for us both, so I walk away and try to leave her to it. Have to allow LOADS of time for it though....aargh!

lots to read here. picked up on emkana's one day with mummy and remembered how disappointed i used to feel on my one day with mummy - with my dd. I felt i would try so hard to have a good time on our one day off together, work/nursery when it didnt work out - without battles - which invariably it didnt, it was upsetting.
She will get better, i promise, my dd3 used to say, i want to be a good girl, at bed time, after having me run ragged. It's called strong willed, and tbh, you wouldnt have her any other way

Just wanted to add extra weight to the Alfie Kohn recommendation. We have "Punished by Rewards" (the book), and recently watched "Unconditional Parenting" (the DVD). The latter is a great way to 'get' the Kohn message/method in a short space of time. Dp and I watched it of an evening. It's compelling, and turns currently popular parenting approaches completely on their heads.

The jist is replace punishments and rewards with love and reason. Cut kids some slack. Respect them. Trust them. Ask their opinion and involvement. Definitely easier said than done (I didn't manage it Friday morning ) - deep breaths aplenty with under-fives - but worth the effort ...

Check out www.alfiekohn.org. HTH

Having had my total despair on Saturday, I had a big chat with dh about what was going wrong. He was scared of offending me, but gave me some kind of "supernanny tips" on where he felt I was going wrong. He is a teacher, so discipline is one of his strong points.

I am so excited by the difference it made yesterday that I thought I would share it in case it helps anyone else.

He explained that the language I was using with her was all wrong. And by losing my temper, I was sending her the message that she was in control. I would ask her to do things instead of telling her. I would end up pleading with her to do things. Every time I said "Time to do x", she would try to push it back by saying "I just need to do x first" and I would let her. Over time this has developed into her doing what she likes and me allowing her but getting angry.

I have changed the language I use. Yesterday I didn't ask her, I told her (and meant it). If she ignored me, I would remain calm and repeat the exact same instruction. If this failed, I would repeat again and lead her by the hand to do whatever I had asked. No matter how bad it got I would remain calm and allow the bad behaviour to wash over me.

I was amazed by the difference. Really amazed. I feel like I am back in control, and the difference in her behaviour was perceptible in just one day. She actually did everything I said eventually, without too much fuss.

I wondered if this would help anyone else. I had always seen these programmes, but didn't realise how much I had slipped into bad habits. I am just so happy, because instead of dropping on the sofa with a glass of wine at the end of the day, I felt like something was going right for a change.

I don't think that asking someone to do something rather than telling them to do something is a bad habit. How would you feel if your dh told you to do something instead of asking? If it was my dh I wouldn't be too happy. For me it's not about who gets control, it's more about working together and having respect for each other. True there are some situations where the parent has to intervene but they are not many. I really think you and your dh might find the Alfie Kohn book interesting (see eggybreads post).

I will get the book, because anything that helps is a bonus. I think that when you get really desperate, and life feels very bleak, it is better to implement something imperfect that works rather than something ideal which has you climbing the walls.

Re-establishing control has meant that our relationship is a hundred times better, and instead of being in constant battle, we are getting on much better. I am not bossing her around for no reason, but simply remaining calm and in control while getting day to day tasks done.

If you have to get out of the house in a hurry, then you have to get out. You can't spend ages pandering to a 3 year old's whims. She honestly seems more contented now that things are more calm.

Wish there were free parenting classes for everyone who needs them. Antenatal classes only prepare you for the big day (apart from info on bf i suppose) not for the really hard part (the rest of your life with children). Bet you 10 years from now parenting classes will be the norm. There´s money to be made (sorry, am very commercially-minded ) and people to be helped to happiness. Áre the Americans doing it yet?

Have been reflecting on this, and have decided that the way things were before was almost totally devoid of love and respect. Confrontations were the norm, where I would need to get her to do something and it would be a horrible experience for us both.

At least by building a foundation of mutual respect we can move forward postively, which wasn't happening before.

I agree with you about parenting classes. The problem is that you don't realise you need them until it is almost too late, and then things have deteriorated to that extent already.

oh, let's hope it's never too late!

I haven't had the chance to read all of the thread, but we're going through a similar thing with our 3.7 ds.

I find that sticker charts work well for him but only on specific tasks, eg. tidying up, eating his dinner, toilet training, but not really on general behaviour (particularly bad with his younger sister). He gets a warning if he pushes/trips her and then the second time (there is always a second time!) he goes to his room. The time there varies on the crime. I know there are toys there etc, but we've not found the naughty step that effective, or a boring spot (he can always find something to rip or whatever) and the playing quietly in his room difuses the situation and calms him down if he's all wriled up.

Having said all of this the biggest change has actually been me, my behaviour during these situations. I would slowly bubble through out the day and then explode with ranting of my own. You don't really 'see' youself doing it until you see your child mirroring your exact behaviour. I'm not saying I don't shout anymore, but this now only happens a few times a week when it's completely warranted, eg. something dangerous is about to happen, and he's not so 'deaf' to the shouting and actually pays attention. The rest of the time I really do try to act as calmly as possible, no matter how much it winds me up I try to stay focused, tell him what is wrong with what he's doing and what will happen if he doesn't listen. He gets three strikes for the day so to speak and if his behaviour worsens then his favourite toy of the moment is lost for a few days (not just the rest of the day but for 2-3 days). It is kept somewhere he can see but can't touch (agree with the others that says the punishment really does have to matter to them).

I'm not saying what we do is perfect, he still misbehaves every day, but he's only 3 afterall and I can't expect him to act well all the time (half of his misbehaviour is because he's bored or has lost attention in the previous activity, it's just unfortunate what he then wants to do next is usually naughty!). BUT I do think that changing my behaviour has brought on a big change in his behaviour. If he doesn't see you snappy and snatching and shouting then it's amazing how quickly they stop doing it too (well, it's been a couple of months now and things have improved lots). HTH. Will keep an eye on this thread!

Forgot to mention (and I can't believe my post was so long! sorry!) that I saw on a stress management tv program a while ago that when you're angry and shouting you tend to hold your breath. So to quickly calm yourself down recognise what your breathing is doing and try to take in slower, deeper breaths, or even force yourself to just breathe normally. It really does calm you down and even if you start off with an initial shout it's amazing how they start to focus on you as soon as you calm your voice. You don't have to carry on shouting just because the first few words come out a bit loud.

Have not read all the thread but noticed a comment about parenting classes. I may be wrong but i thought there were free parenting classes through parentline

But what is bad and what is good and what is just normal behaviour. Doing what your parent tells you all the time isn't normal behaviour. Perfect robots of children are basically abused children who daren't set a foot wrong.

I think you need to pick which battles are worth having and which aren't.

Also may be you're one of those people like me who just isn't suited to being with under 5 s all day. Sometimes a break does you both good whether it's her at nursery in the mornigs and you going back to work.

Another tip that's come to me (from MN!) is to do something nice with just you and dd (or whoever is the difficult one that the mo), no other people, siblings, and no other distractions than 100% attention from mummy, even if it's just walking down the road to the shops to buy a paper, you can skip and hop, play eye-spy, or whatever and make it a positive experience, and if the odd occasion does crop up where you want to shout, bite your tongue, get down to their level and speak calmly but firmly to them, and then quickly distract, distract, distract! (When there's only one of them to think about it's amazing how much easier it is to deal with them).

Well, I agree that going back to work in a few weeks time will be a positive step for me. I am ill suited to spending 24/7 with the children - with no family nearby I find it too gruelling.

When I am at work (part-time) I find I relish the time with the children more, and get less worn out with it all.

pasta jars/sticker charts don't work with all children

I think they are a complete waste of time

only read your first few posts but she doesnt sound naughty to me

just a typical annoying 3 yaer old

she sounds bored

Haven't read the whole thread as am mega busy at work, but I can empathise.

My dd is 4 in May, and can be an utter pain.

What we have adopted and seems to help, is a chart for good stars AND bad stars. So, she gets good stars for when she has done good things ( duh!?) like getting dressed blah blah, but if she does something naughty, she is given a warning that if she does it again, she will get a bad star. And she goes ballistic if we mention the bad stars and usually that is enough to stop her in her tracks.

At the end of the week if she has more good stars than bad, she gets a small present.

As I say, has worked for us pretty well for quite a while, but many not suit all.

Good luck!

emkana you have a new baby too

older kids tend to act up when new baby is 6 months or so

mine did anyway

agree with xenias post of 11.03

Sorry not had a chance to read all the messages so apologies if I'm repeating here...

Have you ever watched Dr Tania on Tiny House of Terrors (BBC3)? She has some really good methods and has made me realise that when my DD1 is acting up, it is usually as a reaction to whatever mood I'm in. I don;t rate any of the other shows (ie Nanny 911 or Suopernanny) but I really do think that Dr T is a star and her advice has really helped me in the past.

I'd agree with mishw, but it is a viscious circle in a way isn't it. If dd is in a bad mood, makes me mad and vice versa, although I know I am the adult and have to control it. Finding it hard as 28 weeks pg and knackered and limited patience!!

God love 'em!!

This has given me loads of ideas, too. Thanks - pasta jar is brilliant! Off to stock up on choc buttons right now!

Just one thing to add - ds plays up most when he is tired, hungry or thirsty. He's particularly difficult the day after he's had 2 straight days at nursery. Now I've spotted this and make sure he has a quieter time, or ensured he eats a bigger breakfast etc, he is more manageable and the positive parenting tricks have a better chance.

I agree - ds is more prone to naughty behaviour if he is tired/hungry/bored. It really is a full time job to keep focussed 100% of the time on them when out and about.
Could you maybe ask her to come with you to do your errands and IF she's good - then you can go to the play park afterwards?

I usually take ds to the supermarket and he gets a comic/little car at the very end if he is (semi) good. But I don't even think of going if he's not well rested and fed!

He's almost 3 btw.