Pasta jar, star charts, naughty step... NOTHING has ANY effect on dd2 and I DESPAIR

[emkana]

She really winds me up so much and I just don't know what to do anymore! No matter what I try it just has no effect on her. She just will not do as she's told. I started the pasta jar yesterday and was very hopeful but then today when I said "I'll have to take a pasta away from you for that" she just said excitedly "Oh please can I take it out Mum?"

She has odd moments when she'll cry and say "I'll be a good girl now" but two minutes later she's up to something again...

what can I DO, I just hate it that we're permanently at loggerheads!

She's 3.6 btw.

yes, kitty, i agree, but you also want them to be motivated to behave 'well' for its own sake, rather than just obeying a rule. eg, to experience that being kind to sis makes her feel good herself, rather than just obeying the 'be kind to sis' rule, iykwim.

My dd sounds very similar to yours emkana - nothing works on her really either.

I bought an interesting book called "How to deal with Sensitive Children" (I think) - and that basically advocated the old thing about picking your battles. Basically the only things you say an absolute No to are danger things - like crossing roads, not touching kettles etc, and some things you decide to let go for now (like saying Poo Head maybe) so you ignore them, then there's the other category of behaviours - which are what you are going to work on - and you have to work ourt strategies with your child as to how you can both be happy ! I'm not explaining this well !!!

OK - example - my dd last summer was a nightmare about getting dressed. She would only wear one outfit as everything else was allegedly uncomfortable. When the outfit was dirty and taken to wash she would refuse to get dressed at all and throw a big tantrum. After getting the book I sat down with her and discussed it (very NOT ME !) and established that what she liked about this outfit was that it was strappy and cool, so we looked in her cupboards and found some other strappy cool things, they weren't quite what she wanted - as they weren't pink, but she accepted that she could wear them while the pink one was in the wash. I had to agree to get the pink one back in action for tomorrow !

The book advocates working out a compromise that you can both live with !

I thought it worked quite well - and when I remember I try that tactic !

my dd is also like this! she is 4.8. am really trying to let all battles go except major ones ie issues of safety etc so that she doesn't get a reaction, am gritting my teeth and praising anything at all positive. and have orchestrated it so that she gets time just with me this weekend.

she has only been fulltime at school since xmas and so we have lost quite a bit of time that was just me and her - maybe being a PITA is her way of telling me she misses me [hopeful emoticon]??!!

interesting what noonar says - although i have no problem with praising where praise is due and do think rewards have their place, i am uncomfortable with using them too much. "normal" good behaviour should not be something you expect to be rewarded for, you should just do it!
will watch this thread with interest

emanka - what a timely thread.
I really really empathise and btw so do the 5 mums I was chatting to this morning at the school gates. Ours are all between 3.5 and 4.2 and they are all (without exception) being absolutely awful at the moment. One mum was in tears walking into pre-school today and said "(dd) has done it, she's broken me, I just don't know what to do next".
My ds1 (3.10) is variable in how he responds to different strategies, so you always have to be one step ahead and invariably I'm not! I found 'how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk' quite helpful. Particularly the chapter on disciplining without the threat of punishment/withdrawl of treats etc. I have to say however that there are times when you just don't have the time to 'describe, explain, repeat etc' and you just want them to do as you've asked simply because you've asked, end of. I keep dipping into it whenever we're in a difficult phase with ds. Ireally do try positive parenting, but every now and again I slip into the 'if you don't do this you won't get x' and then the screeching stage - I hate it, particularly when even that doesn't work.
I was having a moan to my mum about ds's latest tantrum and her helpful reply was 'is that normal? he shouldn't still be having those at this age' Eh??? It was so reassuring in a way to speak to the other mums this morning and discover they're all at it.
We were all struggling with it and we were all losing it occasionally with them, but that didnt' make us awful parents.

Love this thread - I once went on a 'commercial negotiating' course at work - never used used it until I had kids! My youngest (2) is just as stroppy/stubborn etc. my first (5) was so much easier so has come as a shock. Rewards/stickers/incentives/negotiations call it what you want but if it works and results in happy kids happy parents then go for it I say. Think of it as teaching them life skills abit early....

Another rubbish day with her, she had every possible treat taken away from her, but she just doesn't learn from it.

For example I said "come on now dd be a really good girl at bath time so that we can enjoy our story afterwards and you can watch a video with dd1" but then she didn't come out of the bath even though dh told her four times... and then she pulled out the bleeding bookmark again, something she was in trouble for only the other day...

She is now in bed crying, no story, no video, I've just had ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!

Slight variation on the shop them today btw - today she used the hair brushes in the chemist to brush her hair.

She's a clever, intelligent girl, she knows she's not supposed to touch anything, but still she does it...

According to her "I want to be a good girl, but I can't help being naughty."

Grrrr.

I feel for you emkana. I haven't read the entire thread, just your last 2 posts and have to say, your dd sounds exactly like my ds1, only he's 5.8 [hmmm]

I have no advice, as I am really looking for some myslef, but am sending hugs from one frustrated parent to another.

H2J - thanks

I feel really despondent atm, it's such a shame because when she's good which she can be we have such a lovely time together.

I wish she would choose to be good more often, and I just don't understand why she chooses not to be when it leads to everybody having a horrible time.

sometimes they want to be naughty just to be naughty, same as adults do!

'natural consequences' work wonders - there have been literally times when the consquences i impose for bad behaviour are Nothing whatsoever to do with the behaviour - then i wonder why they dont learn. But i still end up doing it sometimes! I find consistency with natural consquences and discipline to be my hardest struggle as i am still learning myself but i wont give up because the times when natural consquences are given, they work!

for example, when the football gets kicked over the fence - no more football in the garden because it doesnt stay there.

or, if homework is not done (with help from me) then accompanying record book will carry message to that effect and that i was disappointed with his effort rather than a message to say homework was done and i was pleased with how hard he worked.

or (for littler one) if he pulls the cats tail, he wont get to groom him (he loves to do this) as i am not able to see him treating the cat gently.

Learning to see the consquences of actions is a really important developmental stage, and one that i dont think Ever ends. With regard to something like the hairbrushing in the shop - is there something that she did 'well' on the trip, even a really teeeny thing that you could comment on how pleased you were that she did ....... and how it made you all smiley inside etc and focus on that part? Postive reinforcement like that sometimes works well too.

And sometimes what looks like being naughty to us is just a toddler discovering the world and what's in it. Lots of brushes just lying there, how tempting to brush your hair with.
Really not wanting to get out of the bath, I know the feeling but I know I have to get out. A toddler doesn't always understand time constraints.
Sometimes trying to see it from their point of view can calm the situation down a bit.
However, if she definitely had to get out of the bath we would have lifted out after a couple of warnings. Then jollied her along for the story(obviously risking a tantrum ).
Really feel for you all at the moment. Just try to remember - it will pass.

Feel for you on this one. It seems nothing works and she doesn't learn from it. My DD (2.10) called me nasty today but this was because I helped her put soap on her hands in the cafe toilets! The only thing that has worked this week was when she spent the morning throwing books (an annual) and then a plastic elephant (quite large) at my SIL, I told her she would not be going to playgroup. She immediately apologised. No stickers/naughty step/threat of chocolate withdrawal has worked with me but being grounded may work(which has surprised me as I thought parents did that to teenagers). She is pulling hair and hitting children too so more exclusion definitely for this. It is difficult to apply the same punishment to each misdemeanour. I am struggling too and it is making me miserable.

Can't believe how good Mumsnet is! I'm just sitting down at the computer with a coffee almost shaking because my 3.6 dd has just gone off to nursery school having slapped me in the face, screamed, shouted and run away when I was trying to dress her (or trying to get her to dress herself) this morning. She has done this every morning this week and its such an unbelievably stressful start to the day that its really getting me down. Nothing we do seems to work either! She's pretty good the rest of the time although very strong-willed. Anyway, Emkana, that's just a long-winded way of saying 'I'm with youi'!! Can't offer any positive solutions - still searching myself - but you have my sympathies and everyone else on this post who's going through the same thing and counting the grey hairs!!

Funny you should mention grey hairs pobblestoes, I was only looking at mine this morning! We too have had the "I'm a good girl now" and then she is doing something again" I can understand how this splits couples up, I went for a drive after I put her to bed this evening.

This whole thread could have been written by me. DS2 is 4 next month and is just a complete nightmare. I have totaly lost it today. I ended up telling him I was going to live somewhere else and went and sat in the car for five minutes so I could cool off.Everything is a battle every bloody day. He too will only wear certain clothes. He fights me all the way. Today was lunch, I made him what he asked me to (?) and then sat and stared at it fro ten minutes. I dod the old ' I am going to count to five' thing. I ended up just chucking it in the bin. At this moment in time if someone offered to have him I would let them...my head is throbbing feel so stressed with him. Everyting else in life is fine...sorry rant over.

Sharez, have you tried filmimg your day as in Nanny111, sort of thing, dont know if it would work, but might let you see things in a different light, show it to DS as well, at 4 he is old enough to take notice of what he is doing if he sees it in front of him. Just a idea

I would be horrified to see how awful I behaaved. TBH when I am ranting i often wonder how it would be if I played it back. It was a really little thing that set me off but after days and days of whinging and battling I had had enough. Feel really guilty now.

But does your Ds really see the ranting or is it 'just' mum. By filming it and watching it with him, maybe he will see why.

Might be an idea cept my video camera is broken!!

Thank God for this thread. Emkana (and nutcracker and others) I totally symathise - my dd is 3.5 and has turned from an adorable little companion into a nightmare. I am so so sad that it has got this bad and literally am at the end of my tether.

I had always practised positive parenting, and have gradually gone from that to a harridan. I am embarrassed at my own behaviour. I broke down today when I realised that every day is like world war 3 in this house. Even the tiniest little thing like eating and getting dressed is an opportunity to be naughty. By the end of the day I am so tired and stressed that I just sit shell-shocked and in despair.

I have a younger daughter and am convinced that this is the root of this attention seeking. It makes it very hard to provide a consistent discipline system when your attention is needed elsewhere all the time.

I am going to video myself and her to see if the behaviours seem really obvious once you are outside the situation - like they always do when you watch these parenting programmes like 'House of Tiny Tearaways' etc.

I don't have any advice right now, but I wanted to add my voice to those who say it is happening to them too. You are not alone.

You are so not alone cloudhopper. I was crying when I came on here. I do not like the mother I am at the moment.

I am another one who doesn't like the mother I am at the moment. Just got back from a horrendous trip to the park with ds (3.3yr) and stress levels are sky high. I really feel like a rubbish mother when ds is behaving really badly and I seem completely unable to do anything about it except let it really wind me up.

Never had these problems with dd and I know that I probably need to rethink how we do things, like starting a star chart, and then be consistent with it but it's so damned difficult when you're stressed.

A few months ago my mum told me ds was about to enter 'the thoughtful threes'.Never heard that before, give me back the terrible twos any day.

It some comfort that others feel the same!! I cannot believe how down my DD makes me feel. My behaviour is detriorating with her. I walked out today (for half an hour) without explanation after I tried to get her dressed over one hour. DH said she was distraught saying "I lost my mummy" I feel so that I cannot manage my own DD. I would never have thought I would be having these problems. I feel sad that I am not enjoying her.

We head the 'stinky-head', 'poo-head' 'wee-head', 'willie-head' thing quite a lot here too. I try and ignore largely because they will do it more for attention and I like to pick my fights.

I get cross if they do it out or use bad language to other people though (i.e. last week they said something rude to someone so I told them that would no longer have the treat I had planned).

I try and a) ignore bad, praise good, b) distract c) put favourite toys in the garage. The 'How to talk so your children listen and listen so your children talk' book has some good strategies, though I tend to forget them in the heat of the moment.

I think it's just a 3/4/5 year old thing - you don't meet too many adults who call people poo-heads, so I hope they will grow out of it .