People keep telling us our DD is spoiled

[AllTheDwarves]

So, as the title suggests, both sets of grandparents keep telling us our 4yo DD is spoiled because she still throws tantrums if she doesn't get what she wants. I just wondered what other people think constitutes a spoiled child?

She doesn't always get what she wants, by any means, and we imagine it's another delightful pre-school phase she's going through. She's always been quite "fiery."

Some comments have been quite hurtful (unintentionally) and are making me feel like I'm doing something horribly wrong.

Thoughts?

I don't think she is spoiled if you are not rewarding her tantrum by giving into her demands. If you don't give in, then she is not spoils.

However, as others other said,,the kicking, clawing and throwing needs to be stopped as it won't work at school.g

Why does,your mil' say she has little respect for,you?

Kicking and clawing is totally unacceptable in a 4 year old. I can't comment on whether she's spoiled as it's so subjective but that behaviour should be severely reprimanded. If mine did that even once, the punishment would certainly be sufficient that they never did it again.

Just read that back- obviously there would be no physical punishment. But enough taking away toys/ naughty step/ a good talking to that it wouldn't happen again.

I don't think she's "spoiled" as you're obviously trying to punish her for the tantrums.

Forgive me, but is there any chance she might have mild Asperger's Syndrome? It's harder to spot in girls because all the diagnostic criteria came from studying boys. It's just the kicking and clawing to make people back off sounded like a meltdown and needing space to calm down, without any stimulus like touch. Is there anything you've noticed triggers a tantrum, like a supermarket (lots of colours, strip lights, noise, people)? Girls with Asperger's are often better at the social side of things than boys with Asperger's.

I hope I haven't worried you but girls are often put down as immature or badly behaved if they have mild Asperger's, whereas a boy would be assessed and diagnosed. If you have any suspicions that it might be Asperger's, then speak to your GP, if only to get reassurance.

Whatever the reason for your daughter's tantrums, good luck! :)

From my experience there are some children who have tantrums at home at such a late age, without it necessarily causing any problem at school, indeed they are often extremely well behaved and timid at school. I had tantrums until the age of 3 or 4 and then stopped. My db and my dd both had them until later.

The thing that was common to the two of them (apart from the fact that they have both grown into well adjusted adults) was that when they had a tantrum they completely lost control: there is no way they could have been stopped by remembering that they would lose all their toys. You could have beaten them to within an inch of their life, or kept them permanently on the naughty step without toys, and it still wouldn't have stopped.

Both of them were nervous and highly strung children, but also very affectionate and eager to please when not having tantrums. My mother and I both stuck to damage limitation, because punishment just made it worse. All that would happen would be you would have to carry on stepping up the punishments until you passed the bounds of both the law and common humanity, and you still wouldn't get there. But they grew out of it. Calm and confident control was the key.

If you haven't experienced a child like this (and I had 2 brothers and 1 ds who never tantrummed), then you may find it difficult to believe that it is not about parental inability to punish. I have been told my dm thought of herself as a very effective disciplinarian until I was born. I might have thought the same if dd had not happened to be my first (ds went some way to restore my confidence).

To me, it sounds as if the OP is actually doing things and having a good handle on this. Prophecies of doom may well be premature- and won't help her much anyway.

Should add that we are not on the autistic spectrum, but that there are similarities, possibly anxiety related; starsmurf is right to draw attention to this.

Wow that escalated quickly! She is just 4, not yet at school. In all honesty, she is no worse than any other 4yo I know. It's easy to say that it's not acceptable etc if you don't have a child who does it but it's really not as horrific as it sounds. If she is worked up and I get in her face trying to dominate the situation, or try to pick her up, she kicks her legs and waves her arms, or does that dead weight thing and squirms around. It's not uncommon; she's done it at nursery before and they didn't start banding an autistic spectrum diagnosis around. They hardly batted an eyelid, they had exactly the same process as I have. Some children are just more highly strung than others. I have absolutely no doubt that she is growing out of it so please don't worry! I certainly am not!

But you do accept that if she did that at school to s child or teacher it would be unacceptable?

Obviously it would be - Why do you feel the need to ask me that question? If I am coming across lackadaisical about any of this please be assured that I am not. I have said previously more than once that it is a rare occurrence now and I am confident she is growing out of it.

I do not think that GPs should say that - at least not to or in front of the parents! - what they might say in the privacy of their own home is another thing. It is bad enough having to deal with these challenging problems without having family making gratuitous and unhelpful comments.

corythatwas - I think that you are right that GPs forget the challenges of being a parent. I am a GP and whenever I say that I cannot remember my DDs doing XYZ, the girls say "Oh Mum, don't you remember when I did so-and-so." I am very happy indeed with the "end products." - they are lovely young women.

I think my point has been lost in the ether here. Her behaviour isn't challenging - 99% of the time she gets a bit shouty, stomps her feet, tells me I'm not her best friend anymore and goes and sulks behind the sofa. Absolutely normal behaviour for a 4 year old girl. And this is the behaviour which is apparently "spoiled."

I think my niece is spoiled because even though she is physically a very beautiful little girl she is the only grandchild of her Mothers parents. I am sure they never expected to be GP. I don't think her Mother expected to be a Mother either as she married my BIL when she was 36 and has a sister unmarried in her forties. The Aunt totally indulges my niece as well. So she has been surrounded by 5 adults who have worshipped her every snotty nose.
She makes visits to their house very difficult.
On the last visit, she was asked to get ready for bed. She was on a iPad so refused the request over and over again, When it was eventually wrestled from her, she got up and said that she was going to kick my BIL up his backside. He is practically crippled with a bad back.
I was sat beside her when she was colouring earlier in the evening and she told me I had to pass her the colours when she needed them.
She has to be the centre of attention. She puts her hand over her Mothers mouth when her Mother is speaking. Her behaviour is really appalling.
I think you can change the word Spoilt to over indulged though.

It is not her fault though as she is only 8, as I blame her parents. My DCs groan if they know she is coming to any event.

Completely agree Sixinabed. They are very much still learning to deal with their emotions and the odd outburst is going to happen. She is moving on to negotating rather than demanding recently which is amusing more than anything!

You've asked for people's thoughts OP on whether or not your child is spoilt and those that have dared to say it sounds like maybe she is youve totally gone for and then justified her behaviour as being part of her feisty and assertive personality so why did you bother asking for anyone's opinions if you're so sure there's nothing wrong with her or your parenting.

she is no worse than any other 4yo I know, most 4yo do not kick and claw people.

I asked what constitutes a spoiled child. Nobody has said they think she is spoiled, if you read the posts. A lot of focus has been on behaviour and I have simply said that I am not worried about some of the actions others may find alarming. She's not a model child but show me a child who is!

She lashes out at me and DP if we try to intervene in a tantrum. You make it sound like she's Chucky!

She's exhibiting spoiled behaviour by "kicking and clawing" as you describe it. I wouldn't tolerate that off my non speaking 23 month old leave alone a 4 year old.

My dd is 4, not at school and very rarely lashes out. It does happen.

When it does it is a clear sign that she has lost control of her emotions and I've usually not handled the run up very well. She's incredibly smart and gets upset if I've not done something "fairly" or not explained something properly. Also she gets that way if hungry.

My older ds was quite similar. We got a grip of it by being quick to say no to hitting and walking away (not leaving the room as such just moving away). Usually saying nothing would calm them down then we have a reminder of the no hitting. What works very well is then telling them what they should do instead. I then see them remembering it and doing what they should (eg ds has a habit at the moment of just screaming when he's angry but me repeating that he needs to express his feelings instead - he has started saying "I'm really annoyed/cross" etc).

So ignore those who say she is spoilt. Just maintain boundaries etc. I wouldn't go for punitive punishments though (taking stuff away) unless it is directly related to the behaviour.

Yes it is very rarely that it escalates to that point. I have it under control. Normally it is the stroppy teenager style tantrum which I can see could be misconstrued as spoiled by older folk or people who don't have children.

Wondering exactly the same thing as sixinabed? What does "would not tolerate" actually mean? How far would you go in punishments if they had no effect?

When my dd had tantrums, the only thing I could do was to restrain her to stop her from hurting me: taking toys of her or talking to her sternly or putting her on the naughty step had absolutely no effect because she was too upset to understand what I was saying. Should I have hit her? And if that had had no effect, should I have hit her harder?

I can view this quite calmly because it is 15 years ago and I can see that I have brought up a well behaved, hardworking and considerate young adult, who has never been in trouble at school or with any other kind of authority and who is highly praised at work for her people skills. But if I had had Mumsnet 15 years ago, I would not have felt so good about it.

In dd's case, and also with my db, my own feeling is that the tantrums were due to high anxiety levels rather than being spoiled.