Teacher - monitoring son

[Fedup83]

DS 4 has behavioural issues at school.

We've supported the school over and above what I feel could be expected and as requested took DS to the GP to talk about his behaviour.

The GP read the letter produced by the school (much of it we thought ludicrous) and dismissed it saying he could see no medical reasons for his behaviour other than him being bright and perhaps bored.

Dutifully we pushed for a referral (even though neither GP or DH in fact saw fit).

We've taken it all the way to the consultant and after a very stressful time over six months worrying about it after a second session have been totally discharged. No interventions. No medical issues. This despite a rather intense and quite upsetting 'report' being written by the teacher.

Now we feel the teacher (who insisted on having her say about DS to the consultant in said report) can't let things lie and deal with any behaviour in class.

Behaviour includes pushing and shoving and snatching: and "some" of the incidents are through antagonisation. His behaviour at home can be challenging at times - but has markedly improved over the last six months. Which four year old boy isn't a challenge at times?

She keeps a 'note' of his behaviour in lessons - is this even allowed?

Now we've supported and supported I now feel like the poor kid (who has no medical issue) is being unnecessarily monitored.

I'm absolutely sick now. Advice welcomed.

luciole15 thank you.

Spirited describes him to a tea.

He's actually very good with non retaliation and at times I do sometimes worry it's to a point where I think 'am I condoning aggression toward DS?'.

He is 'constant' and I can't imagine they have an easy time. It's not been easy at home either but we feel on top of things now. I just hope his teacher likes him - I don't feel she does and thinking about it breaks my heart. I know what it can be like to say his name a 1000 times a day!

Re. your DC - I know you'll see it through. But honestly the amount of parents who I've talked to (I'm very open about this) have said that I'm crazy for agreeing to take it all the way as it were. Many are teachers themselves and know DS personally. Some are in other professions and are scared of the intervention.

Thank you for your well wishes - to you too.

He has no diagnosis, but the teacher is clearly finding his behaviour challenging.

Has she tried a reward scheme?
Has she tried any other strategies?
Is the school SENCo involved?
Have they considered an IEP or behaviour plan?
Have they made a referral to the county/borough behaviour support team (if one exists)?

There does not have to be a diagnosis of anything for support to be put in place.

I would advise not punishing him for things happening at school. Support their consequences (to a degree!), but giving a negative consequence at home for behaviour at school can be utterly demoralising for a 4yo, and is unlikely to improve his behaviour at school.

I can see this from both points of view. I think both the teacher and you were right to push for a consultant's referral to be honest. A GP can't diagnose autism or other SENs. The fact that he felt that there was no need doesn't necessarily mean anything - better to be safe than sorry surely? Having just seen a child in my childminding setting go through this process it is entirely normal (I thought!) for a teacher to give their opinions and experiences of how he behaves at school. I had input into a similar report. Presumably hearing about how a child behaves in a variety of environments gives a fuller picture.

I would agree with previous posters that a communication book that goes from school to home and back again would be a more constructive way to deal with the behaviour issues he has at school. The child I mentioned above had one and it would list any incidents including what led to them and how they were resolved. It also listed positive behaviour. The parents found this very helpful as often they could see a 'flashpoint' in the scenario and could help the teacher to see what led to whatever outburst had occurred. I can see that it must be very depressing to be taken aside and given a list of misdemeanours. It's also not very constructive.

Thank you Changedup. I think it just feeds my insecurities of failing him in some way.

I'm also upset for him. He's challenging but the most interesting and funny little boy. I feel like I've helped draw attention to him through agreeing to all the medical stuff, the reports. It's not fair - he's four and a boy.

I'll update this.
x

This is a totally naive question - and please bear with me. But what things actually cause bad behaviour?

I kind of thought after we'd ruled out the medical stuff, a stable home life and strict but loving boundaries covers all bases.

I feel like I'm missing 'something' and that makes me think I'll be criticised, which could be why I'm getting so upset.

I think you need to give yourself a break here. School itself can cause bad behaviour - especially in reception. They're all so little. This may well resolve itself in time and I certainly can't see what more you could be doing.

He is most likely finding it hard to cope with the school environment the rules the number of kids the learning the long days. It's so much to take in at 4. Boys especially struggle with school. He will learn. You sound like a loving caring parent who us desperately trying to support her child. I'm sure that with you as a mother he will come through this. Just give it time. Best wishes x

Totally with you on what the teacher thinks of your DS. Not sure if she doesn't like him, but not good you are getting that impression. The key worker of mine gave me the impression that she didn't like my DS. She whinged about him ad nauseam.

Do you get any positive feedback ever? I have told the latest setting that I need to hear as much good news as bad. Otherwise you might start getting pretty depressed like I was.

Thank you for all being so lovely.

We do get lots positive feedback for the absolutely amazing learning assistant. I feel like his teacher is doing it through gritted teeth. I know that sounds paranoid but I can be honest as this is anon.

Perhaps they do struggle to find things - and that's a concern in itself as I don't want to hear a load of tosh just to be positive if that makes sense?!

Hey OP. Sounds like you're having a really tough time, and it does sound awful....and confusing!

So, I'm both a teacher and a mother of a 4 year old boy. I feel your pain!

• if two institutions have cited a problem with his behaviour, then there is obviously a problem with his behaviour. I would also say that if a teacher formally calls a parent in to talk about behaviour.....then there is a big problem with their behaviour. I dread that sort of conversation and it won't have been undertaken lightly by his teachers. If you've had more than one meeting, I would suspect that this is either because other parents are complaining about him, or because the teachers are really worried about him.

• SEN would always be the first you'd look for- mainly because it feels like there's a solution for it, in that there might be resources to help a child if they are diagnosed with something. It is also useful for the child and the teacher. If the child is just very badly behaved, then that is a whole other kettle of fish.

• they are probably still hoping for the SEN label. 4 years old can be too early to tell for some SENs. If they're keeping records of his poor behaviour, this can be very useful in helping him to get additional support. There should be no problems with showing you this information. You should be aware, however, that this information could also be used to push for permanent exclusions. If I'd called a child's parents into school several times by this stage of the year to discuss behaviour, I would be thinking that permanent exclusion was probably likely at some point in their school career.

In terms of behavioural solutions...as others have said (and as you know), his behaviour will be different at school. What is feasible at home just won't be in school. Part of their behavioural strategy clearly is being enforced, in that they are calling you in to make you aware of incidents.

You are clearly concerned about his behaviour and you are clearly a good parent (well, you're asking for advice on a parenting forum. I know most parents of difficult children that I've dealt with wouldn't have done that!). Don't be hard on yourself and don't have doubts about yourself. Nobody can be a perfect parent, but the fact that you're actually asking questions about your parenting shows me that you're probably better than most!

If it was me I'd probably be just making it clear that I was going to back-up the school with my own methods. If you've got strategies that work, I'd use them to support the school with any incidents that happen there. They can't do that, logistically, but you can help them.

G'luck!

Oh dear.
Your attitude towards the school appears to be somewhat hostile.

No teacher chooses to keep notes, monitor a child's behaviour and write a report for a consultant unless she feels it is absolutely necessary; she is clearly concerned. Don't forget she sees him in the context of the class; you only see him at home.

You may ask to see information written about your child, but not the teacher's jottings and notes for her personal use; she may take as many as she wishes.

All this is in your child's best interest, uncomfortable though it may be.

Gah! OP, I should have done more sugar-coating in my 'what the school might be thinking' section of my post. Apologies. Concentrate on the 'you're a good parent' sections.

"the medical stuff, a stable home life and strict but loving boundaries covers all bases"

Sadly, it's not as simple as that! The genetic makeup of the child - their very nature, who they are, their character - interact with the environments they are in in completely unpredictable ways...

My DCs, who have no medical stuff, identical home lives and strict & loving boundaries are TOTALLY different, to the extent that even with having a relatively unusual roorther and sister....

Ooh, something horrible happened there. Even having a relatively unusual surname, their secondary school teachers do not believe that they are brother and sister. Having taught quite a lot of sibling pairs, with very different behaviours, I can say that the absence of medical issues, and the presence of a stable home life, may of course be a help in developing good behaviour - but it is definitely neither always necessary nor always sufficient!

But what things actually cause bad behaviour?

1. SEN
2. Immaturity- he is really young.
3. Personality of the child
4. Poor parenting (lack of clear boundaries, ignoring the child so that they are desperate for attention, doing the opposite and making the child feel like they are the centre of the universe......you name it, really.). This is the most common one. Very rarely have I called a parent in to complain about their child's behaviour and then not realised that the parent was, in fact, the issue. For example, this week I've called a parent in to complain that their child was sending mean messages to other students over the internet. When the parent saw the messages, they laughed and said that the other children should learn to take a joke. It clearly wasn't a joke, and it wasn't funny. How can you deal with a situation like that when the parent's own lack of understanding shows that they are probably a bit of a bully too?
5. Occasional bad decisions- people make mistakes. Kids do too.
6. Hormones- especially teenagers. It can make otherwise sane people go nuts.
7. Low IQ- sometimes children can behave badly in order to mask other issues.
8. Insecurity- sometimes if a child has horrible things going on at home (or is just anxious at school), they take it out at school. I reckon half of all bullying problems fall into this category.

Forgive me but am I right in thinking he is 4 and you have been called in for many, many meetings? When did he start school? This September surely? How can you have been called in so much already?

At home you can create boundaries which are tailored very specifically to your DS, which anticipate his behaviours and which you know to be successful. The boundaries are moulded to fit your DS perfectly, and although he may push against them he knows exactly where they are and what to expect.
The boundaries at school are not individualised (that would be unworkable), your DS is expected work out a away of fitting himself into the school's shape of boundary. Some children are quite successful at managing this during school hours, but find it hard to settle back into home routines at the end if the day. It sounds like your DS is struggling at school while your techniques at home are still working.
I realise it feels like it has been dragging on for ages, but he has only been at school for 3 months. No wonder he is still struggling to work out how he is expected to behave and how school rules work. He will get there eventually.

Out of interest, has he had his hearing checked recently? If he is prone to boisterousness but simply not hearing instructions aimed him, I can see how the teacher may feel that he is being a bit wilful rather than simply oblivious.

Yes we have DD who is just a totally different kettle of fish. I can't imagine a negative conversation about her behaviour in our lives.

I am someone who needs to 'know'. Was it me that's caused this? Has he got a medical condition?

Curious - we have had several meetings so it doesn't look great does it? But I really do think if we went back to the GP now we couldn't even think about pushing for a referral. We've done that against the GPs advice, we've seen the consultant twice. They've had an in depth report from his teacher. But it's lead to nowhere.

At what age can they think along the lines of exclusion? Don't worry - I'm not going to get carried away with this and concerned. But still?

DH as a youngster did all manner of quite frankly bizarre and worrying things - weeing on people's plant projects (ha), setting fire to the school (not so ha) and once stuck a pin up someone's bottom. But after being seen by an educational psychologist - nothing. He was never excluded although the teaching staff wanted him to be.

I think also - it's a school with an affluent catchment and very few 'problem' kids I'd imagine. My best friend said that she teaches in a extremely deprived area and DSs issues wouldn't have even flagged up (she knows him well).

OP you seem very committed to helping your son and I am sorry you are having these troubles. But directing you anger at the teacher seems like deflecting

If I may say reading your posts it feels to me that you are minimising the 'pushing and shoving'. This is not pleasant or acceptable behaviour, and is particularly disruptive for the children who are being shoved. I have a DD who gets vey anxious at school and being pushed about really impedes her ability to enjoy school and learn. Yet you feel lifting a few of the class dinosaurs or whatever is a far worse crime. Being violent/aggressive towards other children is serious and you seem to minimise it imo

In your position I would be getting the HT involved as you seem to be a bit antagonised by the teacher, and I would be more focussed on ensuring my child understood to do no harm.

I do appreciate how difficult it is to get to the underlying issues of tricky behaviour and wish you the best

My son was give his first fixed term exclusion (suspension) at 5 after he had been assessed for SEN and discharged as having no issues, despite his difficulties in school. The school have no choice really - if the child continually breaks the rules, especially if they hurt other children - they have a duty of care. The Head Teacher really didn't want to give him the suspension but she had no choice - she also hoped that this would mean he would be able to get access to additional support. I moved schools after this to one much closer to home, as I wanted him to have a fresh start and to make sure he wasn't over-tired. It helped, but he still had difficulties at school. Finally, in Year 4 he was diagnosed with ASD. But I always knew my son had Autism - I have a Masters in Education - I just wasn't ready to accept it. I really hoped that I could just manage his behaviour with effective parenting, but that just wasn't enough. Eventually I learnt that I could manage his behaviour at home because I knew him so well and could prevent so many issues, but school was a whole different matter.

I really hope your son does not get any suspensions and it is futile to worry about it. You are already doing all you can. Just continue to support the school and make sure your DS never hears you discussing the fact that you suspect his teacher doesn't like him. This will only make matters much worse. It's hard, I know I have been there - I am still going through it at times. It will get better. Make sure you take time to rest and even though it is virtually impossible - try not to worry. Little ones pick up on our stress. I really feel for you. Gentle hugs xxx

If I may say reading your posts it feels to me that you are minimising the 'pushing and shoving'. This is not pleasant or acceptable behaviour, and is particularly disruptive for the children who are being shoved. I have a DD who gets vey anxious at school and being pushed about really impedes her ability to enjoy school and learn. Yet you feel lifting a few of the class dinosaurs or whatever is a far worse crime. Being violent/aggressive towards other children is serious and you seem to minimise it imo

No. If he was to hit, punch, bite, kick. I see this as just totally off the scale unacceptable. Pushing and shoving to me seems vague. It's 'daily' apparently but not against individuals, not with the outcome of hurting anyone, not in out and out violence.

The stealing thing I saw as an opportunity to teach it was wrong. I feel it is wrong. At four lifting from a shop would be wrong - why not at school? I actually think saying 'ah they're all like magpies' is minimising. It's more morally wrong than non directed argy bargey IMHO.

I don't think school would suspend/exclude him if he hasn't hurt anyone. xx

Thank you Ruth.

DS was seen by a leading consultant (gateway I think she said) for children with ASD. She said that there was no possibility of this in her opinion. Surely things can't change that dramatically? He displays no signs of ASD.

He is an anxious child - worried about monsters, doesn't like being alone in the house and sensitive in some ways (asks about what happens after death and worried about it). He's also very loving and empathetic - say for example if someone is alone he'll ask if "they're lonely" and be upset on their behalf.

I can accept medical problems - emotional or physical as I have a number of them myself! I was all ready to accept what the consultant said - in fact after the report had convinced myself of its certainty that he'd be at the very least investigated further.

Your words and very kind and thoughtful. Thank you xx

You know your child best and if you feel that there is no SEN then I am sure that you are right. xx I was the opposite, I knew my child had autism - thankfully he is high functioning which means that he too is loving, kind and has a great deal of empathy for others. His difficulties are mostly social - he wants to be popular and have friends but just finds it so hard to keep them. He is bullied at school and then hits out when it is all too much. He also has real sensory issues, can't bear loud noises, certain strong smells, the feeling of certain types of clothes (he finds his uniform so uncomfortable), etc, which makes the school environment so hard to cope with and can cause disruptive behaviour at school. Now that these difficulties are finally being addressed (since September this year) things are improving but we have a long way to go yet. Being a parent is such a difficult job and is physically and emotionally exhausting at times. All we can do is try our best xx

To be honest, when I read 'pushing and shoving' I understand generally aggressive and being unkind/violent to others. I could be projecting and your posts just now certainly don't suggest your DS lacks feeling or empathy.

It just highlights I guess that what you are lacking here (and you've said it up thread already) is tangible, actionable examples. If the teacher isn't giving them, then all the more reason to elevate the discussion to HT and a formal communication book based on facts daily so you can get on top of dealing with actual misbehaviours rather than vagaries