DS (4) so angry and defiant, how to deal with it? Parenting coach?

[fromheretomaternity]

DS2 (4) has always been stubborn / argumentative in nature. When he was 2/3 years old we assumed he'd grow out of it. But over the past year or so he has actually become worse. He is now nearly 5 and constantly pushes back on even very simple and politely-put requests - to brush his teeth, put his shoes on, turn off the TV etc etc. He is a terrible loser and can't bear being told 'no' to anything and can't listen to reason or compromise. These situations quickly escalate into bad tantrums - kicking, screaming, growling, calling us names. We try to put him in his room; he screams and bangs the door with whatever hard objects he can find. Eventually he will calm down - but then the whole cycle just starts again the next time something goes wrong.

I am honestly at a loss as to what to do. This is affecting our marriage, home life, his brother's life and our work. I am exhausted from the constant battling. DH's view is that he needs firmer boundaries and more consistent enforcement i.e. putting him in his room if he crosses certain lines, making him apologise etc but I am not convinced, it just makes each situation escalate hugely and I don't think it prevents it next time.

I've read the Explosive Child book but DS2 doesn't really engage in the kind of problem solving he suggests - too young maybe. He is very intelligent (early reader) and can be absolutely loving and charming; he behaves pretty much perfectly at school. He appears to make friends and communicate fairly easily and has no obvious autistic type traits.

I'm getting desperate. I would love any advice anyone could give. I've also been wondering if we need a parenting coach, especially as DH and I disagree on how to deal with is, any recommendations would be great (we are London based).

Your GP might be able to refer you to a "Positive Parenting" type course. My DS is genuinely explosive-inflexible (he has an ASC diagnosis now) and I actually found the course run by our local health visitors very helpful. Hearing what other kids get uo to and how other parents cope things was good too. It does vary though, some courses can be a bit crap. It would be ideal if your DH could go along too. Having a shared approach and a united front really helps!

If he's inflexible then at his age you can ease things for him instead of expecting him to do much problem-solving for himself. You could follow a routine - we do this, then that, then that. Don't make sudden requests or requests that appear sudden to him. Give him warning and countdowns. Use timetables so he knows what's coming. "Count-to-three and conseqence" worked well for my DS just because it gave him enough time to think.

Another book with a more conventional approach than "Explosive Child" but very helpful for challenging kids is Incredible Years. It's very brisk and covers a lot of ground (so your DH might like it); it's also very good on how to mix and balance the different parenting strategies. Parent-Child Game is more mumsy but again it's very good on communication and balance. Both were recommended to me by the therapists at the children's hospital; there are parenting courses based on Incredible Years and they are well thought of by professionals.

A couple of things for dealing with temperament.... It's OK to mostly avoid saying no. Try "Yes, when...." instead "Can I have a biscuit?" "Yes, when you have finished your sandwich." / "Yes, at tea-time". "Can I have an iPhone?" "Yes, when you are a teenager". And use when-then: "When you have brushed your teeth then we can read a bedtime story". (And repeat, in your most boring voice...)

It's also fine to cheat at games so he doesn't have to lose. Play badly! Or if you can't bear to cheat, then give yourself a handicap, or let him play "with" an adult against another adult, or switch players half-way through a board game if he's in the losing position. If he's playing against another kid that's more difficult; try to direct them away from competitve games towards getting the Lego out. Maybe you could enrol him in a structured physical games class after school, they're used to gradually bringing on bad losers.

Good luck!

You could be talking about my child! It's exhausting. He's amazing and so fucking willful at times it makes me cry. And DH and I disagree on how to deal with it; mostly because we don't see results from either the calm gentle approach, or the more forceful one.

I don't have the answers but you have my empathy. Watching with interest!

We have a 4.5 year old ds and 4 has been INCREDIBLY tough but there are some glimmers that we are turning a corner. I have found that increasing mybson's independence, giving him choice, lots of praise but tough love and consequences when he needs it. Also started him on high strength fish oil and multi vits, which i think have helped to calm him down. Dh and I have made more of an effort to be consistent in disciplining him and praising him lots.

With ds, shouting definitely escalated things. Some times it was for me not to lose it. I agree with your dh - firm boundaries are v important. I knew all the intense effort we put in was having an effect when he stayed in his room as punishment.

A thread on here got me looking up the additional needs associated with some gifted children, some can have aspergers like behaviours. Although you say not ASD it still might be worth a read up on to see if there are any similarities. It seems these children can get quite frustrated with a world that is a bit slow for them and act out, although usually in school from the little I read. There was a book recommended on Amazon about children who were suspected to have ASD but actually turned out to be gifted.

the book

My ds is 4 in January and is just like this! Yesterday in a particularly bad tantrum after leaving soft play he bit me on the shoulder!

I find he likes to think he has options and control, so say he's not holding hands while crossing the road, i let him chose my left hand or right hand, either way he's got to pick a hand. Seems to work sometimes.

Have you considered PDA? DS3 was diagnosed with a mild version of this recently

www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/introduction/what-is-pathological-demand-avoidance.aspx

DS didn't have passive early history or speech delay

www.pdasociety.org.uk/families/strategies

These strategies may help anyway from what youre describing

Thanks for these comments. He had a terrible morning today - refused to wear T shirt, socks or shoes for school. With his big brother, tactics like offering choices, distraction, saying "later" instead of "no" etc worked. With him it just doesn't, it often winds him up more. 'No NOT later, NOW!!!" "I don't want to hold that hand OR the other hand! NO HANDS!". It is really single-minded insistence on his own way and intense frustration if he doesn't get it.

I do think he's quite bright and I will definitely look up that book; he seems to see through the kind of techniques that will work with other kids, and quickly works out if we are bluffing.

Going to also speak with the GP as I think we need some help especially as DH and I don't agree about how to approach it. We have had a fair bit of change lately - he started school & new au pair - but his behaviour was a problem before that. We've wondered in the past about food intolerance as a cause but haven't really explored that route yet.

It is utterly exhausting (particularly as there's also a lot of sibling rivalry with his big brother). No answers yet. I will keep posting if I get more ideas over the next few days especially after speaking with the GP.

And because he has friends, engages happily in imaginative play and seems to have normal-ish levels of empathy I don't think it's ASD, though I certainly recognise other elements - single minded focus on certain things bordering on obsession, lack of flexibility, inability to be flexible or deal with change.

Actually PDA sounds incredibly like him (except the language delay)

"The main features of PDA are:

• resists and avoids the ordinary demands of life
• appearing sociable, but lacking depth in understanding
• excessive mood swings and impulsivity
• comfortable in role play and pretend, sometimes to an extreme extent
• language delay, often with good degree of catch-up
• obsessive behaviour, often focussed on people"

"People with PDA can be controlling and dominating, especially when they feel anxious However, they can be enigmatic and charming when they feel secure and in control. " - yes absolutely!!!

To what extent is this a recognised condition?

It's becoming more widely recognised-our community paediatrician (south east ) recognises it but it varies depending on area etc I think.

www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Pathological-Avoidance-Syndrome-Children/dp/1849050740/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1442268007&sr=8-1&keywords=understanding+pathological+demand+avoidance

This I found very helpful in understanding PDA and its short history as a recognised condition

www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/positive-discipline/timeouts

I think you are right to feel dubious about time outs and forced apologies

They made my DS's behaviour worse and I wish we'd never listened to pressure to try them

With regards to PDA, is there anyone else in the immediate family who has an instinctive resistance to demands? Obviously you generally mask this better as an adult but if it's there in relatives it could be the case for him too.

It is possible to get a PDA diagnosis but being as it's ASD that is often a more useful diagnosis with the demand avoidance specifically mentioned.

Generally you'd see some issues in other social situations but it is possible for DC to hold it together at school and explode at home.

For teeth-brushing for example, how would he react if you just put the brush in his hand and didn't say anything? What if you got a puppet or toy animal to make the demand? Or said something like 'I bet you can't brush your teeth by the time I do X?

And wishes as fantasy might have some success - so just before starting 'wouldn't it be great if there was an army of teeth-brushing fairies who could come and do this job, I wonder how many would be needed...'

If it is PDA, at the root of it is a deep-rooted and neurophysiological anxiety that manifests as a need for control in order to cope with the fight it fight instinct being in total overdrive. I think this all floods the brain preventing rational thought and it leads to meltdowns and extremely challenging behaviour, particulary if forced to comply or punished for not complying.

Another interesting test is to notice if he will consistently comply for a reward.

Do you actually think your parenting is the problem, OP? Are you a good, loving, nurturing parent ?You say he doesn't have 'autistic type traits' - but a couple of things in your OP do raise a flag.

I blamed myself as a parent for my DS2's disruptive behaviour at school for years (and believe me, the school seemed to blame me too!) but at the age of 10 he has been assessed for ASD and I've been told to expect a diagnosis of high functioning autism. The paediatrician has described him as a 'conundrum' to her - in that his behaviour is good at home, but bad at school - and that an awful lot of usual 'autistic' markers are just not there. Certainly nothing that I recognised as autistic behaviour. But she definitely thinks he's on the spectrum, the 'mild, high functioning end' for want of a better term. A generation ago, he would almost certainly have just been labelled a difficult child.

She also told me that this won't stop him from achieving anything he wants in life, and that she's sees many children where parenting was clearly a problem - but DS2 clearly wasn't a case of that. It is a relief to me to be able to say 'this is who he is' rather than blame myself for poor parenting!

You can speak to his teachers and your GP and ask about ASD assessment.

fatmomma says 'invent rewards not punishments"

www.pdasociety.org.uk/education/teachers-guide

I don't know a lot about PDA strategies, my DS is Aspie and some things that work for Asperger's don't always work so well for PDA. But they both have a lot of anxiety, and generally doing whatever keeps the stress and anxiety levels down is a good idea. I even spent several months letting my DS have whatever he wanted as soon as I knew he wanted it, if remotely possible. It helped keep things calm but my DS would mostly stick to his routine and not make too many extra demands. So that might not work for you.

I'm going to show DH the link about time outs. His particularly bad patch followed a period where he was trying to enforce boundaries more strictly e.g. immediate time out if you hit an adult. I think abandonment fear is extremely powerful and the more frequent time outs may have triggered anxiety.

But if there's no time out how do you 'enforce boundaries' i.e. deal with unacceptable behaviour such as violence?

Rewards are fairly ineffective unless they are immediate and large which is not a sustainable option. Sticker charts absolutely hopeless as we just get into rows about why he didn't get more stickers.

Tried the various teeth brushing options from OnlyHereToday. Hand him toothbrush = puts it down. Get toy to ask = sees through that one immediately, gives toy a thwack then grabs it. Make it a game (I bet you can't brush your teeth in 60 seconds / before I get back) = says no. Fantasy e.g. wouldn't it be amazing if teeth brushed themselves = ignore. Any of those might have worked with his older brother. He just doesn't play the game...

I will be really interested to hear replies to this OP as we have the same with DS who we suspect has ASD. Discipline is very difficult and we are dealing with some very challenging behaviours. Today he tried to kick a very small child I. The playground . It is difficult because the discipline techniques we used for our older DC fall flat on their face for DS, he just does not get it.

OP - it sounds like the teeth brushing thing has become a major sticking point for you. Have you tried breezing through it, with the promise of a bedtime story/other favourite activity straight after? ie. let's just get your teeth done, then it's story time. Or letting him choose one of those kids electric toothbrushes (fairly cheap in Asda) and some exciting stripy toothpaste which is "his"? Could he brush his teeth whilst he's in the bath - change routine a bit?

I'm not a fan of time out at all tbh - I have always kept to a firm 'no, we don't hit people.' My ds is not good at being told off - but he does get "rules" - so the rules are he brushes he teeth everyday, the rule is we don't hit or hurt other people etc.