DS (4) so angry and defiant, how to deal with it? Parenting coach?

[fromheretomaternity]

DS2 (4) has always been stubborn / argumentative in nature. When he was 2/3 years old we assumed he'd grow out of it. But over the past year or so he has actually become worse. He is now nearly 5 and constantly pushes back on even very simple and politely-put requests - to brush his teeth, put his shoes on, turn off the TV etc etc. He is a terrible loser and can't bear being told 'no' to anything and can't listen to reason or compromise. These situations quickly escalate into bad tantrums - kicking, screaming, growling, calling us names. We try to put him in his room; he screams and bangs the door with whatever hard objects he can find. Eventually he will calm down - but then the whole cycle just starts again the next time something goes wrong.

I am honestly at a loss as to what to do. This is affecting our marriage, home life, his brother's life and our work. I am exhausted from the constant battling. DH's view is that he needs firmer boundaries and more consistent enforcement i.e. putting him in his room if he crosses certain lines, making him apologise etc but I am not convinced, it just makes each situation escalate hugely and I don't think it prevents it next time.

I've read the Explosive Child book but DS2 doesn't really engage in the kind of problem solving he suggests - too young maybe. He is very intelligent (early reader) and can be absolutely loving and charming; he behaves pretty much perfectly at school. He appears to make friends and communicate fairly easily and has no obvious autistic type traits.

I'm getting desperate. I would love any advice anyone could give. I've also been wondering if we need a parenting coach, especially as DH and I disagree on how to deal with is, any recommendations would be great (we are London based).

fromhere we try and avoid the situations that lead to lashing out/hitting so we watch carefully for signs of amger/frustration
I say "no hitting" in a calm voice and physically gently remove DS if he's in a rage and continuing to lash out-calmly saying we need to step away for a bit. I acknowledge that he's angry or frustrated "I know it's fustrating" "I get cross too when x happens" "it's very hard isn't it when x y z" and hold him tight if he'll let me. Once he's calmer I talk about using words instead of lashing out, acknowledging that I understand it can be difficult to control that angry feeling but that he doesn't like it if his brother hits him so it's best if he steps away/says how he feels instead. Even raising my voice with DS makes it 10 times worse-staying calm and talking quietly deescalates here. DS cannot learn a thing when he's angry so it's pointless in our case trying to deal with the behaviour until he's in control of his emotions.

I would have thought that if he had PDA, he would be showing some signs of it in school. Does he present in school as well behaved but tense/stressed/passive or does he seem secure and relaxed? If the latter, then I'd have some questions about it being PDA (although I'm not an expert)

I always stay with DS after these incidents, unless he tells me to go away. I think he's frightened by the intensity of his feelings. He calms much more quickly now with this approach. Also rather than saying "stop that" or "don't do that" if he's doing something inappropriate but not dangerous it's reworded eg as "if you do it this way it might be better because..."- a more positive reminder.
We are trying to build up tolerance to frustration by going things like shooting a ball in a netball ring, playing very simple games where you all take a turn at the same time so there's no waiting but you don't always win-doing things that don't lead to frustration, that DS can enjoy because they're not beyond his current abilities. We play top trumps but DS can't manage more than a few minutes so rather than getting annoyed when he's thrown his cards across the floor I say something lighthearted like "ooh it's suddenly raining cards" with a big grin to try and dispel the tension. It's exhausting thinking outside the box all the time but I underpin my behaviour with the idea that DS is doing the best he can so if he's struggling I look at what I can do to make things better first. I don't always have the energy and resources to get it right by any means but rewards and punishments are futile here and so aren't used at all with DS-they create more anxiety and problems.

Re teeth it was the 1 thing I insisted on-I let other stuff go (within reason) and made it the 1 thing that was non negotiable-DS is much much better about teeth if we brush while he's distracted watching bing or something on ipad. You could try giving him an ice lolly before toothbrushing to numb his mouth s bit. Also using a smaller brush helps a lot here-we use an age 2 brush

I think it varies educatingarti
I belong to a pda support group and lots of parents are beside themselves because their children mask their difficulties completely at school, all the anxiety builds snd then is unleashed when they get home

blogs.shu.ac.uk/autism/2014/11/18/good-behaviour-at-school-not-so-good-at-home/?doing_wp_cron=1442395906.0611290931701660156250
Here is a bit about it

m.facebook.com/autismdiscussionpage/posts/713184375427732
I've found this page incredibly helpful for practical advice and understanding DS' s behaviour

interesting thread as you could be describing my 7yo DD who has always been like this! I have sought assistance via the school and had some help with parenting strategies. DD will scream abuse at me, throw things at me, slam doors and then bang on them. She runs away, she won't brush her teeth, or let me brush her hair, or put her shoes on, or turn off the tv... the list is endless. Total and utter defiance all the way to any simple request.

The main thing is to try and stay calm yourself but far easier said than done, I know from experience :( I have also been told to hug DD and tell her that it is ok to be angry. That is not always possible though...... I generally leave her to calm down , by which time you would think she was a different child.

DD is usually lovely at school, but totally and utterly defiant with me and nearly every request from me, is met with backchat, rudeness and defiance.

I was at the end of my tether when I asked for help, so don't let yourself get to that point.

PDA was also suggested to me on here and DD does tick a lot of the boxes but the SENCO at the school wasn't interested in that theory.

Time Out never ever works with DD. A count to 5 usually works, but you must follow the threat through (no tv, early bed, no screen time, whatever you say you must see it through)

Let them make decisions as well within reason, so instead of saying Wear This, give him 2 tops/trousers and ask which ones he would like to wear. Giving them a small amount of control within reason, usually helps as they don't feel like they are being told what to do. Maybe try 2 toothbrushes and ask which one he would like to use. I got a flashing one and a battery one. If it is food, again within reason, offer a choice of sandwich or cereal or snack.

Also giving plenty of warning... the clock hand is on 5, when it gets to 6 then the tv will go off, that is in 5 minutes.... it seems to help a lot with DD if she knows what is going to happen and when so no surprises.

It's not about letting them take control, but it's about letting them think that they have some control over their life, when in reality you are still getting what you want.

I had a lot of help from the local Family Support Network, via the school, so it may be worth approaching your DS school to see if there is any help available.

Sorry I wasn't very clear in 10.01 post-when I said avoid the situations I meant still do stuff like go to the park, play whatever game, but watch for signs of not coping and step away with DS before he lashes out if I can see signs.
As an aside we put the whole family on a gluten and casein free diet and cut out all e numbers, reduced sugar etc just before DS got his dx and it seems to have had an enormously positive effect on DS' s coping skills and behaviour. Ifyour DS has any sort of gut pproblems it is worth considering IMO. I have a few friends with children with ASD and all have seen profound improvements in behaviour by cutting out gluten/dairy

Thanks all. We had two fairly major tantrums today. I tried ignoring rather than time out. He was lashing out violently at me - kicking, screaming, even biting. I just tried to walk away (he followed me though) and avoided speaking or eye contact. I can't help feeling it's 'letting him get away with it'; I did try to say afterwards that he can't behave like that but he wasn't really listening. A third tantrum was very short lived so maybe that's a sign it is a better strategy. Don't think DH agrees though. And massive teeth brushing battle :(

Amazon order of book on PDA arrived today. I don't know if that's what it is or not, or if the label even matters, but hoping for some ideas. More importantly I have a GP appointment Tuesday and am going to ask for a referral for a behavioural specialist (luckily I have health insurance, or if it's not covered I'll pay, I really want to sort this quickly).

Anyone know exactly what I should be asking for? Child psychologist I guess but I don't want him to feel there's something wrong with him?

In principle I'd really like to experiment with diet, though in practice I know trying to get him onto gluten free bread and pasta would be the most almighty battle which I'm not sure I can face. How long do you need to do it for to judge if it's 'working'?

Choices only rarely work. If I offer T shirt A or B, he doesn't even stop to think about it. He just has a reflex answer or either 'NO' or tries to negotiate 'Only if you give me... [something he wants, like chocolate for breakfast]'.

Sometimes I think he's been reading Mumsnet... No is a complete sentence...

skyeskyeskye I dug out a clock with moveable hands for teaching the time and told him that we needed to leave for school (another pressure point) when both hands are on the 9. Think this helped, marginally, rather than an adult arbitrarily telling him it's time to go.

ArtichokeHearts thanks for posting so much useful info. I'm going to try via GP rather than school - mainly because he's so well behaved at school I don't think they'd take me seriously. But will try that route if GP no help

Sorry for posting so much, this is so negatively impacting my life right now. I love him to bits but the mood swings and grief over the tiniest of things is wearing us all down.

Sorry you've had a tough day

Sometimes I think he's been reading Mumsnet..No is a complete sentence

We use a 5 minute sandtimer which can be quite useful for transitions

We saw a community paediatrician soecialising in developmental disorders as she could give us a dx-but this is in SE and I am not sure how things work elsewhere-I was desperate for answers as DS was going backwards in some ways it was terrifying and was wearing us down too.

Maybe start lurking on the SN boards too-Ive learned so much from there

Hope GP is understanding next week and that tomorrow is a more peaceful day

Is there anyone in the family who had or has similar issues? I'd forget about quick fixes. You know your other DC responds to typical techniques so it's not your parenting.

You could pay a fortune and not get any further any quicker than you would for free on MNSN or via other info out there.

What flavour is the toothpaste? Can he say why he doesn't like brushing his teeth?

The only truly successful strategy we've ever found is ignoring the bad. So very hard when there is spitting, kicking, hitting and biting and now swearing but absolutely nothing else works.

Fromhere - I see you are going to see your GP - well you've probably been now and were talking of a referral to a "behavioural specialist" - GPs can refer to CAMHS (Children and Adolescent Mental Health Service) but there is usually a long waiting list and ime they are not very effective.

It is possible to find a clinical psychologist whose area of expertise is children and their behaviour, but I think for a child as young as yours, the best way forward is play therapy. You will have to pay and can find a properly accredited therapist from the Nat Org of Play Therapists (not sure of the exact initials but you can google) Your son sounds angry and my friend (who is a play therapist) says most of the children she sees are angry, well at least that is the emotion they are displaying, but it is almost always masking other emotions.........and a competent play therapist will be non directive but will watch how the child plays and will be able to have some ideas about the problem, and will also help you with strategies to use at home.

I'd be tempted to go down DH's firmer boundaries approach, maybe with the assistance of a parenting coach. If you're split on what to do with him and dealing with things differently it will be 10 times worse, you need to be consistent.

I would pick maybe 5 really important things to focus on and have very firm boundaries. This doesn't need to include being put in his room if that doesn't work, but another immediate consequence (a time out in the same room or a time-in maybe). No negotiation, no games, no choices, just 'do this now' and that's it. It sounds like he wields a lot of power if he's got you jumping through hoops to get him to do anything and that's scary for a child. He shouldn't be running things at age 4, it's too much responsibility. If his problems are liked into anxiety, firm and consistent boundaries should be a comfort.

Everything else outside the 5 things you're focussing on, just leave for now. Turning of the TV doesn't really matter. If he has to go to school in his pyjamas, so be it. Just reduce the overall number of arguments in a day.

Always praise more than you criticise. I know that can be really hard when a child is that difficult, but look for every little thing. It really helps break the negative spiral you can get caught in. Things like 'you're sitting nicely', 'you're walking really well', 'you're being really helpful (if he does anything remotely helpful)' etc.

Even the best strategies for your individual child will take time-with the hurting you I would calmly repeat "no hitting" "no biting" etc each time he does this so you're reinforcing that it's wrong without punishing.
Saying "do this now" if your child has PDA or similar will be like detonating a bomb-I wouldn't take that advice.

m.facebook.com/autismdiscussionpage/posts/765450616867774?fref=nf

this post /\ s my basic philosophy on how to be

If we model the behaviour we want to see-understanding, patience, respect, acceptance, empathy, talking about how we feel without shouting, kindness, flexibility, collaboration-this will bear fruit IMO.

Re diet-is your DS a selective eater?

Warburtons make great gluten free white sandwich bread as do Genius-other brands are mostly vile.

italian brands make the best gf pasta I've found -la buona vita, garofalo spaghetti are both great-DH can't tell the difference btwn gf and not with these.

My DS was described as "turning into a monster" by my father a few months ago just before dx, and by my GP as simply "willful and defiant" -it was brutal to hear and I knew it just wasn't true-he was a completely overwhelmed very small child trying to have some control of his anxiety by refusing simple demands-he needed understanding not punishment, he was already feeling bad about himself without being punished for his inability to control his overwhelming emotions.

It is very hard. Don't forget to be kind to yourself and keep posting if it's helping (unmumsnetty hugs)

Here is Ross Greene author of The explosive child-this is the first of a series of talks. DH isn't much of a reader so found it easier to watch these instead of taking forever slowly working his way through the book.

Apologies for bombarding you with so much info-I hope some of it will help you

I've been reading all the PDA links with a lightbulb flashing over my head - it's very close for my 4yo DS too.
We already do a lot of what is suggested, but the hardest part is knowing whether it's right or not - after all, if they're NT then my natural instinct is to be firm and not let him 'get away with it', but if it is PDA then I'd feel more confident in using the softly softly flexible approach. And what does PDA mean for the future? Can he grow out of this behaviour even??
My DS was assessed for ASD by CAMHS about 6 months ago as he wasn't eating, and ASD had been repeatedly suggested by many. CAMHS said no - he ticks a lot of autistic behaviour boxes, but too mild to benefit from a diagnosis.

The last 24hrs in this house have been shit - DS1 controlling everything, massive tantrums, mostly sparked by the toilet in our case.
It's like walking a tightrope, one minute he's fine the next he's bashing his head on the floor, screaming "No". He's been having night terrors again too.
We're all exhausted.

When I worked with an 8 year old with PDA, something that would get him out of tantrums was reading a book out loud. He liked reading and books, but it you'd suggested it, he'd have just gone into further meltdown so While he was raging round the classroom turning over chairs and sweeping all the pencils etc off the tables, I just sat down (with another chair next to me) and started reading a book out loud that he was interested in( break time so all the other children were out of the classroom thankfully). I didn't look at him or try and connect with him in any way.

Within about 30 seconds he had stopped throwing stuff and come and sat on the chair next to me to listen while I read the book. It was as though part of him did really want to calm down but he just couldn't access that state. Focusing on something away from the situation like the book seemed to give him the space to move away from the anger and fear a bit.

No idea how you can avoid the tantrums in the first place though !

It’s funny you should say that educatingarti – my DS has always found being read to very calming. As for avoiding tantrums, it’s very individual – a lot depends on individual triggers . To be honest it can’t always be done. It’s usually about cutting down the number of outbursts rather than preventing them altogether, especially for younger children.

Self control (usually) increases with age. On the other hand demands increase too. So a lot of it is about finding the strategies that lower demand and then maintaining a balance between demands and ability to cope. For instance my DS would react very badly to unexpected requests whereas something he knew about in advance might be fine. Another thing that made it unpredictable was that if something was a huge demand he might cope with it all just fine and everyone would be very impressed - but then he’d go apeshit later on when he was asked to do something trivial (google Christine Miserandino’s “spoon theory” for a good explanation of why that happens).

I agree that there aren't quick solutions, it usually takes time and dealing with one kind of behavior problem at a time. I would have loved to go straight to "no hitting" but I had to deal with a lot of other underlying problems and frustrations first! I needed a way to deal with the hitting when it happened (I did use time out as DS needed to self-calm and intervention only made things more dangerous, kids vary though) but I couldn't expect that to stop the hitting. He, and we, needed strategies to manage each of the common situations that led to the aggro in a calmer more effective way, llong before he got so frustrated or anxious that he lost control.

Hello, thanks for the posts so far.

DS's behaviour is not just about demands from us - he also kicks off when he makes a demand and it's refused. Which could be anything - demanding a sweet, a toy, to be allowed to cheat at a game... the trigger could be a whole range of things, but his reaction is completely disproportionate.

Today I took a day off work and took him to the local shops to get coffee and cake, which should have been a treat (I usually work full time), but his behaviour was absolutely terrible - massive screaming, kicking, hitting, throw himself on the floor tantrums, in the middle of the shops. I should have just gone home but I needed to do a couple of chores urgently and I can't let everything be dictated by his mood? I have no idea why he acted like that, he wasn't hungry, had a good morning at school and was excited about me picking him up. It's mystifying. But he is nearly 5 now and was acting like a 2 year old.

Not sure what I'm asking for really. Mainly venting as it's horribly upsetting. Feels like his mood is dictating our lives and we are constantly nervous of what mood he will be in :(

This is exactly what DD is like. If I say no I get a load of abuse back about how I don't love her, I don't want her to be happy, she wants to leave home, I hate her, she hates me, I don't care about her.... all because she can't get her own way.

I took her to the cinema on Saturday and she behaved perfectly. I popped into literally 2 shops and because I wouldn't take the route that she wanted to go, then wouldn't buy her a top she wanted, she then ran off, threw her toy on the floor, refused to move, shouted at me, then cried when I said that we weren't going to go to Pizza Hut because she was really looking forward to it. I had told her that if she played up we wouldn't go there and I had to see it through.

I told her that this is why I don't want to take her anywhere, because it always ends up like this.

I feel for you, I really do. I don't give a shit about what onlookers think, but when I am trying to make her hold my hand and she starts twisting her arm then screaming that I am hurting her, it is very difficult....

Might be an idea to talk to your GP. It's pretty usual for a child to get tired and temperamental towards the end of an exciting day. But having him kick off that early, that’s not so usual. Most 5yos would be on a bit of “best behaviour” out on a treat. Your DS sounds quite overwhelmed. With my DS, the disruption to his daily routine could be enough in itself to make a special day out difficult instead of enjoyable. And is he usually OK in shops? My DS often found them too much to cope with.

I dunno if this useful but... this is how you could try to refine your reward strategy. The general idea is to give him a very specific reward for one very specific limited behaviour, so there is no room for disagreement over whether he has earned a sticker or not. (He may argue anyway but never mind.) As a for-instance, here's how a reward scheme might help him brush his teeth. Obviously I don't know all about your DS so I might have this wrong, it's just an example. You would first have to accept that it's OK for him not to brush his teeth properly while you get the reward thing going and maybe adjust the reward plan, or stop if it's not working. If he was willing to rinse his mouth out with water that would help keep his teeth healthy while things get going.

You said that your DS enjoys chocolate for breakfast and he will reliably pick up the toothbrush and put it down with out a fight? Then that's a starting point. For the first week, picking the toothbrush up and putting it down nicely earns him a sticker. Rinsing his mouth with water would earn him another sticker. If you do the stickers just once a day and don't
make tooth brushing an issue at any other time of day, then then that's twelve stickers a week (allowing for an odd day when things go wrong) so twelve stickers means chocolate for breakfast about once a week. When he is earning his chocolate reliably, you up the ante. For the next week, to earn the sticker he has to put the toothbrush in his mouth. When he's doing that then the week after he brushes his front teeth for a given amount of time. Then back teeth. Then inside his mouth. Then add toothpaste.

Pick your moment to tell him about the week's toothbrushing deal - not at toothbrushing time. If you like, you can discuss the reward with him, but in the end you decide what the reward will be, not him. He could suggest rewards so you know what kind of thing he likes, or you could give him a choice of two or three rewards if you like, but don't expect him to say that he agrees with the deal. Just tell him what it is. If he argues, repeat the deal once and then stop talking about it; if he keeps on arguing then don't respond, and when he calms down just change the subject. Then at toothbrushing time you can get the chart out. The chances are he will do the deed and accept the stickers. If not, then repeat the rules for getting a sticker once more but don't insist he does it and don't react if he tries to argue; just put the sticker chart away til tomorrow.

If he does the toothbrush thing then give some praise along with stickers - and no back-handing about how he could do more. Once he is picking up the brush calmly and reliably and has earned his reward once or twice, you can tell him that next week he will get the reward for to putting the toothbrush in his mouth. And so on.

You may need to change the plan. If the problem is caused by a sensory issue then he may hit a brick wall. Or if the problem is mostly anxiety he may even decide to do the whole thing right from the start without needing any of the little steps - my DS has done this! (I kept the reward going just for doing the first step, and DS kept doing the whole thing.)

This may seem like an awful lot of very tiny steps and I might have put in too many, and anyway the toothbrushing problem might not be something that's easily solved by rewards espeically if he has serious sensory problems, it's hard to judge. But anyway with rewards you need to start from where he is now and reward him for doing something he can do, and then for taking the next tiny step in the right direction. We can't start from where our kids should be (pity!). And if it's too easy you can make bigger steps later on.