4 year old impossible to potty train and starting school in Sept - any advice?

[puddymuddles]

I have been trying to potty train DD1 since she was 3 years old. She is a bright girl and has no obvious special needs but refuses to use the potty/toilet and seems afraid of growing up - always saying that she does not want to get bigger or go to school and talks about when she was a baby and the things she had and toys she played with almost as if she wants to be a baby again.

She goes to nursery 2 afternoons a week and has a younger sister who is 2 and I am expecting DC3 in June.

Her keyworker at nursery says I should ask to be referred to a child psychologist as DD has been saying lots of things at nursery about how she doesn't want to grow up etc. Everything else at nursery is fine - she is well behaved and has lots of friends.

I have been to GP who dismissed my concerns and said they couldn't refer her to anyone as she does not have a physical problem.

All the things that work on my friends' children do not work on her - bribes, star charts, rewards, getting big girl knickers I have tried them all. The most she has ever done is agree to wear knickers at home and has done a few wees on the toilet then seems to get fed up and doesn't want to use it anymore and just has constant accidents. I am starting to encourage DD2 to use the potty and she is a lot more interested but then DD1 gets even more upset and won't do it at all.

Please help - she is due to start Reception in Sept - they will think I am some lazy parent who hasn't bothered to toilet train my child whereas I have been stressed about this for ages.

Should I go back to the GP?

I would see a psychologist to get to the root of not wanting to grow up. What does being a big girl mean to her? Why is that scary or bad?

Have you contacted your health visitor? Ofcourse its a problem a four year old still being in nappies during the day and your GP is being a dick. If you cannot get her to use the toilet with support from a health visitor then the the health visitor can make a referal to a child pychologist.

Have you spoken to the health visitor, they can be handy for stuff like this, give them a call they cover kids up to age 5.

Would she progresses from nappies to pull ups?

X posts re health visitor!

I agree with speaking to the HV.

Is she wearing nappies/pullups at the moment or are you persisting with pants?

Hi. I know you must feel under pressure but September is a long way away and kids this age can master things overnight that might overwhelm a younger child. My DD got to 3 and still completely disinterested in toilet training and I was feeling stressed, especially as my older DD did it so easily at 2.5. So when we had a brief spell of warmer weather in March I just said, 'that's it', withdrew her from nursery for a week and took off the nappies full stop, to heck with the consequences (a carpet cleaner or bucket and sponge is recommended)! On day 1 she had to sit for 45 minutes on the potty for a wee and my heart started to sink, by day 2 this reduced to 15 minutes and then by Day 3 it was over in 2 minutes. And with a minimum of carpet damage (never did have to use the machine) and by Day 3 we were out and about enjoying the park and never looked back. I got a lot of ideas from reading a book by Nigel Latta, a Kiwi child psych, whose book 'The Politically Incorrect Parenting book' has chapters on fussy eating, non-sleeping, and all the usual issues including potty training - I think the chapter is called 'Winnie the Pooh-Less'!

I would send her to nursery for more hours. Two afternoons a week isn't much for a child going to school in September (IMHO!).

I can understand her wanting to be a baby, especially if she has a younger sister and you are visibly pregnant. More nursery will mean more time with kids her own age and more incentive not to wet herself.

At home, I would use bribery. Chocolate, anything she likes or wants. Star charts didn't work for my dc.

we had similar issues with DS although he's the youngest in the family. Speak to the heath visitor, in the end they where really helpful withit. Yes we where still doing all the hard work but she gave me the support I needed. He was also very resistant to bribies and sticker charts. We had to find something he really loved which was counting numbers. They do dot to dot reward charts, which started him off, but he did get board of that to. We just ended up having to push through it. Lots of accidents nursery where great, but he goes everyday as he's actually older then your DD. He'll be 5 in November. And he got there in the end in a few weeks without too muchupset. He
still had the odd accident for a little while but he's great now.

He's still suck on just using the potty at the moment and starts school in September. I'm trying not to stress about it.

My ds used to say similar things..."I don't want to be a big boy" "I want to grow down not up" "I want to be one again"

We only just got him out of nappies and he he is keen to be grown up and a big boy. I think it was fear of change/using the toilet causing him to say those things.

Thanks for all your replies.

GoodToes - she says being big is 'horrible' and insists her sister and new baby will grow big but she won't.

ReallyTired - I will ask at GP how to contact Health Visitor as I think some extra help is needed if something doesn't change soon. The doctor was a bit of an eejit I agree!!

Heels+TeWe - she refuses to wear pull ups. I persisted with knickers for a week recently but have now given up in despair again. Her younger sister will wear pull ups and do wees on potty.

Fleecy - DD is at nursery 1 to 6pm on two days - so ten hours a week. The nursery are open holidays so they spread the free hours differently from a pre school. I did try to send her to a pre school last Sept but she hated it so much and wouldn't settle after a month (basically they were calling me every day saying she is really upset). This nursery is a much smaller private one that has a lot of younger paid for kids too (maybe that is why DD likes it). I did actually pay for an extra afternoon for a while even though cant afford it but it didn't help with toilet training at all.

I think my best option is health visitor as that way she will get referred to child psychologist if things don't improve. Hopefully they will improve soon!!

I'm going through a similar thing with DS who is 3.7, we actually saw the health visitor yesterday who suggested we took a laid back approach to it, now bribery, not overly praising and very calm and chilled. We've only had day one and no significant progress made but I'll keep you posted. I feel your pain though, DS is in nursery full time and I do feel like I'm being judged as some lazy cow.

Hi Tomfun - the lady who runs DDs nursery also suggested same laid back approach which hasn't worked so far! However her keyworker suggested I try to get her referred to a child psychologist as she was worried by the fact DD was telling her how she didn't want to grow up and keeps talking about the past and things that happened when she was younger. They used to think i was lazy now they are sorry for me and think she actually has a problem.........

DH thinks that seeing all the other kids in reception using the toilet and some of them wondering why she is still in nappies/teasing her will sort her out!

My DD1 was awful at potty training and she did get it at preschool first (stopped having accidents at preschool way before she stopped at home) the peer pressure does help.

As long as she isn't distressed by wearing pants I would keep her in them, and involve her in the clear up of accidents (so at 4yo my routine was DD has accident, DD is sent straight to bathroom to take off wet clothes and puts them in the bathtub, DD redresses - DR does this all by herself while I clear the puddle.) but I would do a week or two of routine training first so she gets to know how it all works and it's not a shock to be expected to dress herself. Very importantly, not too much attention for accidents, masses and masses of praise for heading in the right direction, masses of praise for being 'helpful' and how great it is that she can be so helpful to you (obviously avoid any big girl stuff!)
I know the washing will be stressful, I had a very similar situation pregnant, toddler, difficult 4yo (although DD1 was more of the 'i will do it when I start school and I haven't yet' angle, but it was worth all of that washing to not send her to school in nappies)

The 'they'll do it when they're ready' brigade are really unhelpful in these situations. Some children take a long time and need that time out of nappies for it all to click, and if you accept that there could be months of this it will be easier to cope with.

At the same time I would persue the HV angle just to cover all the bases.

It sounds a bit odd but I had to take my dd with me each time I used the toilet. Watching me wee, spurred her to sit on the toilet. Then she'd wait for ages watching herself to see if any wee would come out.
It took quite a while for her to have the confidence to go but she got there in the end.

It does sound like the root cause is that she's the eldest and probably thinks that if she was small again she'd get more of the attention and your time.

Ds has gone through [admittedly short] phases like this. It has helped to focus him on things he enjoys or is interested in that only big boys can do. E.g. "Look at that ride ds! You can go on it when you're a bit bigger!" Or things he currently enjoys doing that he couldn't do when he was a baby - ball park, climbing frames, all the fun stuff etc.

I suggest that you just stop the nappies during the day altogether and go with it. Don't tell her she is a 'big girl'. Of course being in nappies is easy for her because they are nice and comfortable and keep her dry and maybe she still enjoys the time she gets with you during a nappy change. See if you can replace this time with something else. Also don't compare with her little sister.

Just use the potty and the toilet and don't let her go back into nappies. If you allow her to think that she can go backwards she will when she has an accident. Taking her into the toilet with you is a good tip. Go yourself and ask her if she wants to have a try. Don't pressure her. My daughter has iron bladder control and half the time I was trying to encourage her to go she didn't need to. It made training her tricky in the early days because the times she needed to go were relatively rare during the day.

My daughter did develop a bit of an interest in different toilets. So she'd decide she needed to go more often when out and about just so she could try them out. We do live in an area with quite a lot of nice clean public toilets (Not sure you necessarily want to encourage this but it might help!).

The only other thought I have is that my daughter was quite contrary. It only takes us telling her that she can't do something that has her trying her hardest to do it. This approach could work with a reluctant toilet trainer.

My DS was absolutely adamant he was my baby and refused to use potties or toilet. The good thing was that as soon as he decided he wanted to do away with nappies he was, effectively, completely potty trained!

Speak to the HV of course, but in the meantime try and be more subtle about it. Don't try and overtly push her into it. Sounds like it needs to be her choice.

LittleLion I think you are right - she thinks if she was a baby again she would get more attention. Today she was very happy when I said that DD2 would not be going in the pushchair anymore when the new baby arrives (DD2 is only 2.3 but hardly ever goes in it anyway as loves to walk everywhere). She said DD2 would be too big for the pushchair and that DD2 and new baby would get bigger but she wouldn't ever get bigger.

Cedar - interesting about the different toilets when out and about! Both DD1 and DD2 afraid of hand driers so I have to convince them it doesn't work to get them to go in to public toilets at all (sometimes we are lucky and there is no hand drier, just paper towels). I agree about not comparing to her sister - I must stop that. DD2 is now getting interested in the potty and today took her nappy off and went on it. So I may have to train them at same time!!

Aranan - that is really encouraging!

Will still contact Health Visitor as so close to going to school don't want to be all stressed and getting no help if she is still not properly trained by September.

Thank you for all the really helpful replies.

Put her in pants and just keep taking her to the toilet. Bribe her to do so. Take no notice when she complains. They arent all easy my 3.4 year old has been a nightmare with it, but eventually you just have to say no more nappies imo.

When you see the health visitor, ask for a referral to a community paediatrician. The paed will look at possible physical, emotional and neurodevelopmental reasons behind the behaviour and can refer her to CAMHS if necessary. This gives you a route to bypass your GP who doesn't sound helpful at all.

I really don't think anyone should dismiss this level of worry about growing up in a child. It needs looking into.

As she is scared of hand dryers, have a look into sensory processing difficulties to see if this is a wider issue for her.

Also sensory processing issues, worry about change and continence problems can all be part of Asperger's Syndrome/Autism so have a look at that too in case it fits your DD.

Some children react quite badly to having a sibling how 2 is your 2 year old if your dd was under 2 when she was born she was a baby herself and could have had some sort of reaction to the new baby would ask the gp to refer you to a phsycologist or a play therapist to try and get to the bottom of it in the mean time i would drop the nappies at home dont say big girl say 4yr olds go tothe toilet she sounds a sensitive soul but you want her out of nappies im not a huge believer in they will do it when they are rea dy we need to help them to be ready.a few kids ive worked with regressed when new babies arrived so its not unusual good luck.

If your 2 year old is interested in the potty she might go on it too

Goldmandra - yes will bypass GP if need to. Good advice. If she was just not bothered with potty (there is a boy at her nursery who also refuses to use potty and still in nappies, he is a few months older than DD1) but he does not have the growing up fear just doesn't care about accidents according to his Mum.
I doubt she has ASD as she is very verbal and sociable and good at interacting with other children but of course I am no expert on this.

She was late walking (2 years and 4 days old when walked on her own) due to hypermobility. Not sure if this is anything to do with it. Is scared of hand driers and having water on her face in the bath (so washing hair also hard!).

Thanks Mrs J they do play together well but also fight, DD1 was not even walking at 20 months when DD2 born (I thought she would be walking of course!!) DD2 a very active child who walked at 12 months and is talking very well now at 2.3