an upsetting experience in the park today... 3,5 years old

[quietus]

A very upsetting experience today in the park... or just normal?
I took my 3,5 year old to an open theatre performance and stayed with him to play with other children in the park. I was watching him running around happily and it seemed to me that all was fine. He was running after other children, trying to catch them and do whatever they were doing. When I heard him crying for the first time, I disregarded it as I thought that he fell in the grass by accident. When he cried for the second time I went to see what was happening and saw that children were trying to tell him something. When I asked them what happened, a girl, perhaps a year or year and a half older than him told me that they told him off because they didn't want to play with him. According to her, he didn't want to leave them alone and was bothering them every time they would do something. I told him that we should go somewhere else, but he ran after them only to hear him cry hysterically again and again. Other parents did not react at all. Then the children became openly nasty (when they would think that I wasn't watching), and when I tried to explain to the girl that maybe he didn't understand them because he was smaller and perhaps had some language issues (we moved to this country 8 months ago and he goes to a local kindergarden where everything is OK), she repeated her statement. I could not but to react this time and told her that I wish the day would come when nobody would want to play with her.
Anyway, I picked up my son who was crying hysterically and carried him all the way home. He was so hysterical that he almost started to vomit on my shoulder.

I don't know if this is normal and if children can be so malicious. It is also appalling that no other parent came to see what was happening. If it was my boy, I would clearly instruct him to let other children play with him as well, regardless if they are part of his group or not. Maybe a part of the problem is his inexperience and the kindergarden environment where they teach them that they are all "friends." Sounds nice, but does not correspond to reality.

I am all stressed now even though I know I should not overexaggerate this...

We all have to put up with irritating people at all ages for short bursts. It's part of living in society

I agree with this. There is an irritating man at my church who barges into conversations and makes them about him. He mostly talks about roads and cars. Often I'll be in a vague conversation about nothing much but he did it when my friend was telling me about her DH's cancer diagnosis. She was sobbing on my shoulder and he came up and asked us about ford escort engines. Another time my dd had been hit in the face and was crying. She was developing a black eye, the other kid was apologising in tears and someone was getting ice. He physically pulled me away from DD and asked my what I knew about automatic gearboxes.

I put up with him because that is part of living in society but I only see some of my friends at church and if I want to talk to one of them about anything that isn't cars then I should be able too. I don't owe him all of my time every week. The only time I had been abrupt is when my daughter was hurt but I do assertively move on quite a lot. I don't like him. I don't like how disrespectful he is and I don't understand why I should politely hand myself over to his rudeness.

The same applies if I meet a friend for a coffee or a drink or a meal. I will talk to strangers, even irritating ones for a few minutes but if they pull up a chair at our table and dominate the conversation then I will tell them, nicely, to bugger off.

The OP says her ds went over to these kids 'again and again' while they were playing. It sounds like they may have got past the polite stage and into the bugger off stage.

There are some syrange views expressed here, alongside the common sense that of course children don't have to include every random stranger in their game!

Doner how old are your kids? Your ideas sound like the ideolised theory of somebody with 1 baby or toddler, and no real idea what you are talking about.

Do those few arguing that children should include all comets in every game in the park also happily chat to the crazy guy on the bus, or welcome the annoying line drunk to their cozy table for 2 inthe pub with DH? Do the compulsary sharers hand over their car keys or credit cards to all and sundry?

Kindness is not the same as being a doormat. Kindness is saying no gently if you don't want to do something, not always sacrificing your and uour friends fun to accomodate everyone, every time.

I have a 3 year old too, as well as older kids, and part of parenting all of them is ensuring the older ones have space and time to play games a 3 year old would spoil, and keep him out of the way and help him deal with not always getting his own way, even though of course it would be easier for me to tell the older ones they HAVE to play with him - often the "all play nicely together" option is the lazy one! Kids have as much of a right to preferances, personal possessions, not sharing everything, and not including everyone in everything they do, as adults do.

Bavarian I agree. We have to teach our children social skills and part of that is explaining to toddlers that groups of children who are playing together aren't always open to newcomers. The nuances of social interaction are complex and take years to get right...some people never fully grasp it all.

Well written Bavarian

There seems to be a gap between the Op's expectations of herself and her ds, and what she expects of other people.

When I heard him crying for the first time, I disregarded it as I thought that he fell in the grass by accident:
Surely 1. you were watching a 3yo enough to see whether he fell over. 2. I've never known a parent just assume a child who is crying has fallen over and doesn't need to be comforted. Surely if you see your dc crying you go and check they're okay the first time?

I told him that we should go somewhere else, but he ran after them only to hear him cry hysterically again and again. Surely if your dc has been told they're not wanted the last thing you let them do is let them follow again and again crying. I can't imagine any child is going to turn round and say "actually he's bothering us so much we better let him play"-or adult for that matter.
You had a choice at that point, take him away and distract him, or talk to the children nicely, make friends with them and then maybe ask if your ds can join in for a short time. And then you stay and encourage their game.
You were setting him up for a fall, if you thought him continuing to follow was going to do anything other than upset him further.
You didn't get your 3yo to do as you wanted-but you expected other children to behave as you wanted.

Other parents did not react at all well you didn't react to your own dc crying "hysterically again and again", so why should other parents.

I tried to explain to the girl that maybe he didn't understand them because he was smaller and perhaps had some language issues why didn't you explain to him then? If language is the issue (although he obviously understood enough that they didn't want to play) why didn't you explain in his first language rather than leave it for them to explain. 4yos are not subtle, they won't sugar coat that they don't want to play.

I don't know if this is normal and if children can be so malicious as had been said the most malicious one here was the OP. As I said before 4yos are not subtle and can be nasty, but it's not malicious particularly not letting an unknown child play.

If it was my boy, I would clearly instruct him to let other children play with him as well, regardless if they are part of his group or not. I take it you don't have older ones? So if your ds when he's older is doing a jigsaw with a friend, and a toddler comes up and wants to play by pulling the pieces apart, you will tell him to play? Or when he's 6 or 7 playing football with friends and a toddler comes up, you will expect them to stop kicking it hard and pass gently to the toddler? Or when he's showing a friend that he can play "twinkle twinkle" on the piano and the toddler joins in by bashing the keys so hard your ds can't be heard-all fine? If your ds is drawing a picture, you're happy for a younger one to scribble over it because they want to join in?

The thing is 4-5yos are beginning to get more complicated games. A 3yo boy, with some language barriers, is probably not going to get their game entirely, and may well spoil it. I was always very grateful to an older child who allowed by toddler to play, but certainly wouldn't have expected it.
I remember dd1 and dd2 at that age had very complicated games that only they and the friend(s) they were playing with understood. They couldn't have explained the rules at all because it was something that had just evolved into (to them) a hugely entertaining and hilarious game. (but totally baffing to me)

It is up to adults to ensure children learn how to play appropriately with each other and dealing gently with a 3yo is part of that.

my experience is the younger kids are the problem. The 3 and 4 year olds in my street take toys and are quite aggressive with dd aged 6. She never gets a minutes peace. They are either taking her toys/bike/go kart or following her around, hanging off her. I wish she would tell them to do one but she wont because thats 'wrong'. Possibly she gets this attitude frkm nursery or school. I dont see why my dd should not be able to play out without beig harrassed. I get sick of hearing they are only little, sorry xxx broke the bike i didnt think he could, xxx dont hit dd. I would be fed up if i was my dd and i wouldbt have put up with it as a kid probably due to being brought up in a different generation where you stuck up for yourself.

Can you teach your son to introduce himself and ask to join in the game?
Sometimes the answer is No, and that's okay.

My kids are 5 and 6 and I've taught for 13 years. I know what I'm talking about.

This thread is funny.

Shit like this happens with young children. OP, no offence but its not a big deal.

You are quite right, Cordon. I do agree with you, especially after I overslept it.
Thank you all for your comments!

I lived in Turkey when my child was small. There is a huge difference between the way Turkish children play and the way British children play and I'm not sure why. But the Turkish children are way, way more inclusive and they would never treat a younger child in this way.

Similarly there is a massive difference in the way Turkish adults treat children and the way British adults treat children. Turkish adults love children and always go out of their way to chat to them, smile at them, pick them a flower etc etc. Perfect strangers will happily chat to your child when you're queueing at the supermarket etc. Here in Britain we avoid eye contact at all costs. There are lots of activities set up for children here in Britain, yes, but they are all separate from the adults' activities. When a child crosses over into an adult 'area' of life, we purse our lips and suck in our breath until the parent removes the child and takes it back to the area designated for children.

So maybe that's the difference. The example we are giving our children.

I don't know what to say OP, except that I personally would never allow my child to treat a younger one that way. Unfortunately, that's the way it is in Britain today so you need to watch out for it.

Shoot me down in flames everyone, go ahead, but first, go and live somewhere else and observe the differences.

Rita
i lived somewhere else, i actually come from somewhere else.

While i agree that children are included in adults company i think that there is not big difference in how children play. Children are children in any country. Theyall scream 'no', 'mine', 'i'm not playing with you'.

If anything in many countries cousins are very important and take priority over friends and parents encourage their dcs to prioritirise the extended family.

Perhaps the children in op's case were playing with known friends or cousins. They didnt have to include her son. It is not a msjor drama.

I agree with you Rita- children learn how to treat the young from the way they are treated. In many countries in the world, people make an active effort to be kind and lovely with small children. Older children therefore cast themselves in a more adult role by being caring towards younger ones as that's what they see modelled. Here, where adults tut and purse their lips at small children, that's what the slightly older children reproduce. It's horrible. I grew up in France and can see that children are socialised into sensible behaviour much much younger than they are here (although that seems to go awry in their teens). It seems to be cool to be mean to those who are weaker in the UK.

I've had this before, and I just asked the other children if dd would pokey with them. I say "dd is only little and likes maker new friends with more grown up children, would you be nice and let her play with you?" Often then this gives the kids a sense of responsibility and they will play happily. If they say no then I remove dd and she can find someone else to play with.

we lived abroad for years
its cultural adaptation
just because things are x, y or z in one place doesnt mean they are in another
i agree, kids would be more inclusive, in france they'd get a big whack if they werent, maybe in turkey too (?), but that means diddlysqat in the uk. you need to stop younger kids annoying older kids or your kids will get some sharp words

Play not pokey. Wtf?!

I live abroad too. The kids in pur village do play in a big, mixed age, group a lot and at the village festival teens of both genders watch out for and help the toddlers and small ones BUT it is ridiculous to insist all children always play with anyone - the wishes of a toddler are equally important to, but do not outweigh, the wishes of an older child.

If a group of age6-10 year olds are playing football they do NOT have to include my 3 year old just because he wants them too - he would utterly change the game and make it less fun for the other 8 or so lids as they would have to be so much more careful and the game would become all about him. Ewually if my older kids and fridnds are playing Lego my 3 year old will destroy what they build - it is up to me to get the Fuplo out and distract him in parallel. The same kids are often happy to include the smallest ones, but sometimes not - it is not up to other, older, children to entertain my youngest whenever he wishes.

Teaching children they must ALWAYS put the wishes of others befote their own and change their game to suit any younger child, every time, not only limits their play hugely but teaches them to be people pleasers unable to say no - and in fact feeling saying no is naughty. It also leaves the younger ones absolutely unable to deal with the tiniest, most minor rejections, which will inevitably happen eventually.

Are you posters serious?! 'You shouldn't have let your dc annoy them?' Really?!?! He was trying to join in. Children can be mean, and they should kindly be encouraged to let anyone join in. I felt so sorry for you and your son, reading your post, and I bet any other mum would have left feeling really upset too. We all want to protect our DC's feelings, they are so vulnerable when little.

Really Queasy? Why should kuds playing in a public place be obliged to change their game to include a younger child? Its lovely when kids who meet in the park do play together, and when older kids look after younger, but why is the wish of a 3 year old to join in more important than the wish of a group of 5 year olds to continue the game they are already involved in? If you are having a nice dinner out with old friends would you you happy if I pulled up a chair and spent the rest of the evening with you? Childten have just as much right to choose who to play with - they just need to be as kind as they can about saying no, not this time.

Teaching children they must ALWAYS put the wishes of others before their own is also making them more vulnerable to predators.

As someone said in other countries adults really enjoy the presence of children and children themselves are consequently more tolerant with small children. So maybe individually people in the UK can start to change the culture, but meanwhile, don't blame the children.

If you are having a nice dinner out with old friends would you you happy if I pulled up a chair and spent the rest of the evening with you?

I've seen more than one AIBU where this has happened. Not a random stranger but someone bringing an uninvited partner, mother or friend along and the OP being disappointed that the dynamic of the evening has changed. They generally get a close to unanimous YANBU.

Op you were out or order to the little girl and you emotionally blackmail your child. Is hysteria common at your house?

Oh good god - involving a smaller child in a game would lead to them being more open to predators?!?! Bit of a leap from the research there!

I don't think they had to play all day with the child...they could have just humoured him for a bit.

I forget how quick people are to attack others on some threads on mumsnet. I was just trying to empathise with the woman who saw her son really upset. I didn't completely agree, but then didn't feel the need to jump in and judge either. I'll stick to the nicer, more open threads in future. Empathy is sorely lacking on these forums sometimes.

It's not involving a small child in a game that makes them more open to predators, it's the notion that you must always be accommodating, even when you don't want to be and other peoples wants are more important than your own. Being told you are mean and will end up friendless if you don't always pander to other peoples wishes isn't a particularly good message to give. Kids should learn that it's OK to say no, and learn that hearing no is fine too. A random stranger not wanting to play with you shouldn't be a catastrophic event and it sounds like the 'older' kids were tolerant at first. The point between humouring for a bit and humouring him all day has to be reached a some point.

Very true, I agree. I'm really not sure anyone was suggesting that children should pander to everyone's whims and always put everyone's needs before their own though. Not sure that any of our posts are helping the original poster tho. I just felt sad for her. I feel sorry for my 10mo when she smiles at people in shops and they ignore her. I'm well aware my compassion is often in overdrive. I'm not encouraging it in others tho, nor do I want my dd to follow suit, just is prob why I sympathised. It's bruising when you realise you can't make everything better for your dc and that, actually, some stuff is their own fault. Good to reflect on all this xx

I'm with Queazy. These kids were being mean. No they don't have to be include to a kid 1 year younger in their play, but they sound like they were being nasty on the playground. Something similar happened to my once to one of my kids and another mother intervened and made her child who was being mean apologize.

This is what decent people do.

Quietus did not emotionally blackmail her son - ridiculous comment.

It would have been appropriate to tell the little girl how she would feel if she was being excluded, probably 'I wish this happens to you' a little extreme