3 yr old, does and donts, like and dislikes and my high expectations?

[weeonion]

I recently was given the chance to look after my niece for first time. She has NEVER been away from her mother and I mean never away. She has always been in same house / flat as mum so this was a huge thing for us all. She is 3. It has taken 2 years to reach this point - where DN would be allowed to be with other people, without her mum there.

This was part of being a support/ help to my SIL whose 2nd baby is due in a few weeks and was to mean that on labour day and possibly some other times - we could have DN.

DN was originally meant to come to ours for a play date at the weekend. Her mum emailed through a list of advice and instructions for the 2 hours, detailing what dear niece (DN) likes / doesnt like, does do / doesnt do, what we are to do / not do.

The list said that as DN
doesnt like lumpy food - it has to be pureed
doesnt like to feed herself - prefers her mum to feed her
doesnt like teeth brushed - they dont do it
doesnt like car seat - dont use one
doesnt like to sit in a chair - roams while eating
doesnt like getting face / hands washed - they wait until she is in bed at night to do it
doesnt like to be reprimanded - dont do it
doesnt like other children - not have any others around when she is with us (my own dd is ok, she can stay)
doesnt like adults - make sure there is no-one there but myself
doesnt like to hear the word no - dont say it.
doesnt like public transport - dont use it
doesnt like sharing so better for all if she can have what she wants

The list goes on ....
I thought over the past 2 years we had got to a point where we might get a chance to get to know our niece and spend time with her. I am not so sure.
I said that with those all those conditions- i would find it hard to follow them and look after her. I said I was unsure how they thought i would get her to our house and back as they dont use a car seat and I refuse to drive a child around without one and she isnt to go on public transport as she doesnt like it and it is too dirty with germs.

They have come back to me and said that i have too unrealistic and high expectations of a 3 year old's behaviour.

I am now questionning if i expect too much. I dont think i do but maybe??

I thought I was soft and overprotective, but no way. This isn't right and you're right to be trying to intervene. 3 year olds may well have one or two issues from that list, but that sounds like a nightmare. I hope you are able to get help for them all.

A 3 yo who only eats puree food, who is bfing as their only source of comfort, who has never heard the word no or had any boundaries. Whose parents are so frightened of her that they would rather risk killing or maiming her in a car accident than using a car seat.
A 3yo who is unwashed and with dirty teeth and smelly breath. Who has no understanding of what it means to socialise with children or adults.

This is one of the saddest threads I have read for a long while.

Home birth, homeschooling, extended breast feeding are all great. However lack of boundaries is not. Things like sitting in a car seat and learning to take turns are just normal every day things.

these parents are doing all they can to keep their child isolated from the world and completely dependent on them. She is being failed left, right and centre by them, in every way possible. I can't decide whether there are MH issues at play here, or whether it is a deliberate attempt to keep their family under the radar.

I would be very interested (and probably horrified) to find out what they do when their DD is unwell - has she ever seen a doctor? I would also hazard a guess she is not vaccinated.

Personally, I would still push for SS involvement. If they carry on the way they are, SS are going to get involved anyway - I'd rather it was earlier so minimise the damage to this family.

OP I have read your previous threads and agree with previous posters that you have to do something about this. Clearly DN is going to be in the house for the entire time her mother is in labour. How on earth is she going to cope with seeing her mother go through that? And the only one who could comfort her is her mother who may not be in a position to provide comfort and may even disappear to hospital at very short notice & possibly for a few nights. How on earth is DD going to process that and how is that going to affect her behaviour towards the new baby.
The co-sleeping arrangements alarm me too. The other day we had our 4.3yro in with us & our 20mth old for about 20mins before I realised I was never going to get back to sleep as I was too worried about DC1 suffocating DC2 so ended up in the spare bed with DC2. That was with a 20mh old, not a newborn.
OP, you are in a hideous predicament but are doing such good by questioning your SIL's parenting.

This sounds horrendous

If they live in a rural area then there's probably only one practice they could be registered with. The Nhs has a "find a GP" page somewhere where you put in your postcode. Might be worth a shot if she doesn't tell you the name.

Good luck

Tallgiraffe - we all live in big city so a few health centres / practices in their area.
Spoke with HV. She wasn't overly concerned tbh. She thought that MW will draw boundaries pre labour around DN being around for birth with no other adult for support. She also thought nursery would pick up on things and help with sharing / socialisation. She didn't quite "get" that SIL is planning no nursery and kept talking about what should be happening, not what is. she did say that she would try and find SIL HV and have word. Kjnda got impression that she thought i was over reacting and as DN is not at immediate risk of harm, not a priority. she suggested a car safety leaflet to give them. That makes me smile as i can imagine SIL's reaction.
I have no doubt that they love DN very very much. I also am not criticising cosleeping, breastfeeding etc - we did them ourselves. I have thought for years that SIL grief was poured into DN. She says not.
Father in law alive but pretty useless. She has dp in same city. They used to be v v v close but not now. She has 2 other brothers but again - no real support there. BIL has no family - his mum died 2 yrs ago.
DP is going to tell them tomorrow that he is really worried about car seat and say why. He is gonna ask what their concerns are about DN in car seat and see if something else going on that we don't know about. He is gonna bring DD old car seat so they cant say they don't have one. He is gonna say that if he finds out they continue to do it, he will be reporting.
We are allowed to visit at weekend but DN and i will not be going for walk it seems. (i was only thinking of local park overlooked by their flat so SIL could at least have us within eyesight and if DN was v v upset - its only a couple of minutes walk). it will be yet another visit where DN will get stressed by us being there (according to SIL) and they will retire to their room for breastfeeding for most of the time. I don't think I am going to go. Visits are never a relaxed affair and maybe best to not be there.

Some said up thread about BIL being "allowed" to do things. That is pretty much how things are framed and also how SIL talks to us as well in a "you are allowed to come visit between 12 - 2pm" kinda way.
BIL loves SIL dearly and would give her the world. Literally. i know he found it hard to bind with DN at very start - he found the labour really traumatic and also - at start was not "allowed" to do anything really for DN. No nappy changing, bathing etc. don't think he feels like that now but DN never "goes" to him, clambers on him etc. She really is constantly with mum.

okay, you're last updates have made it very clear. You must contact SS. I don't think your DP taking car seat will achieve anything and if anything, will drive them further 'underground'. Just make the call, please.

of course there is nothing wrong with all those things, within a normal, family relationship. But that's not what's happening here, and I'm guessing your BIL knows damn well things aren't right but is somehow powerless to do anything. So you guys must.

I'm sorry to push on this, I haven't felt this strongly about a thread for a long time. I can't stop thinking (as I'm sure you can't either) about that poor child. They may well love her, but they are failing to parent her in any meaningful way at all. They probably would deny it, but they are neglecting her and damaging her hugely. She is unsocialised, unclean, unhealthy, because your SIL has some deluded notion as to how she should be looked after.

Again - has she ever seen a doctor? I would be surprised if a 3 year old hasn't had to go to the doc's for one reason or another.

It's just so dysfunctial it's not being child led at all is it

MrsOak I couldn't agree more. I'm sure they love the little girl to bits, but something is so very very wrong in what they're doing

OP, kudos to you for doing what you're doing. I'm sure it's tremendously hard, but it's the right thing to do. (unmumsnetty hug).

I know she has been to docs. She had novo-virus last year and was def seen about that. She isn't vaccinated to my knowledge.

Did your SIL come across as particularly anxious or controlling prior to DN being born?

My feeling is that losing her own mum at such a massive time of upheaval as having her first child has made her fixate on controlling her and DN's environment to an extreme level to counteract anxiety/PND.

I am no psychologist but recognize the type (though thankfully not the extent) of behaviour from my own mum who was always inclined to anxiety and being a bit of a control freak but got considerably worse following a breakdown after the death of my nan to whom she was very close.

The whole family need your help and if HV isn't taking you seriously there must be something else. Do you have Surestart where you are? Perhaps worth seeing if you could have a chat with one of their family outreach workers? Otherwise your only option is SS, preferably before the new baby arrives tbh.

I can't begin to imagine what the impact on your DN is going to be as a 3yo seeing her mum go through labour when she has no idea there is even a baby on the way - it will be utterly terrifying for her with little means of comfort and then she will have to play 'second fiddle' to a new baby.

I can't imagine how your SIL will cope either - it can only be a matter of time before the whole thing explodes if they don't get some kind of help asap.

It worries me that the HVs etc are saying there aren't enough reasons to get involved. I guess because a lot of the things individually are more 'normal' eg fussy eating... but combined it makes a pretty horrific picture :(

Like Dum I would be so worried about how she will cope being at home for the birth. I do think it can be a wonderful experience for the child to share but only if they've been prepared for it FFS! How terrifying is it going to be to see her mum possibly screaming in pain - and quite likely unable to speak to or reassure her, or maybe snapping at her - and having no idea why until a tiny little person comes out. At which point all she will understand is "that baby made my mummy scream"... what a great way to meet your new sibling it will feel like her world has fallen apart.

This is a really sad situation. Frugal is right some of the things on their own are not worrying or even unusual, but together and with these behaviours formalised and deemed acceptable (thinking about the car seat here which is even illegal) then it is a situation that starts to border on neglect.

I would be worried about what they have told the midwife regarding another adult being present (there is actually going to be a midwife?).

Is it a case of digging a hole so deep, but being afraid of asking for help to get out of it. What was your SIL like before becoming a mother?

Hi folks!
DP had an interesting time today....
He had read this thread before going and felt quite positive about what he wanted to get across/ how to say it. Didn't quite work out like that tho.
They were v defensive and he thought that they thought something was up as soon as he got there. He focused on labour and how we could help out. That conversation was ended as they wouldn't discuss it with DN around. He then tried to talk about how much we would like a relationship with DN. They agreed with that but laid out SIL conditions, ie - it must always be at their house. Apparently i am too strict and curtail children's spirits so SIL needs to supervise me! She also questionned as to why i thought i was qualified to look after DN. DP did get pissed at that and from then on it got more and more tense. DP, by own admission, didn't handle it the best and said how worried he was with everything he was seeing. They did concede that car seat was crazy but find it too hard to drive with DN screaming in it. DP said that he / we really wanted to help but thought that on certain things they could do with outside support - maybe HV / SS. SIL went bananas and DP was told to leave. He did but v shortly after BIL rang and asked to meet away in their local cafe.
He told DP that he feels completely out of his depth and has done for past 3 years. He has just agreed with SIL for an easier life and as she has told him - she is expert on her child and needs noone else. As she reads so much on childcare - he has taken most of what she says / done as the right way to go. BIL thinks I am over reacting and should butt out. DP was clear that he wants to help get more support for them and we will not be butting out.
SIL texted me thanking me for gifts etc for DN over past 3 years and that i am welcome to visit Mon - Fri between 11- 12 if i want to see DN. she said "there will be no unsupervised contact". A further text came saying that she thought i needed a hobby as i am obsessed with their family and that she feels sorry for my DD as i am not allowing her spirit to grow and expand as fully as it should.
So there we go.....

I wonder if you could start with the car seat thing, then, since they've actually admitted that is a problem. You know, the usual things to try - special toy/snack ONLY allowed when in car seat, make it into a game, some kind of distraction on seat back (even a DVD player?)

Sounds really tough though :( I admire you for sticking it out.

That's insane, completely insane.

Your BIL needs to put his foot down for the sake of his dd. nowhere in a book would your SIL have read that it was ok not to brush a child's teeth or not use a car seat. He MUST know that as a rational adult.

If I got texts like that I would start telling her how it is, ie you want your dd to be able to function in society.

Well done your DH an you for trying.

Bertie - i am very angry and pissed off tonight tbh. I am far from a perfect mum and should have expected SIL to put this back onto me. It ain't about me however.
i am gonna support DP in this but feeling like i need to draw a boundary.
We are going to ring SS and track down her HV. They will know it is us now, after today. FIL and DP's 2 brothers have been on at him tonight, very angry at us (actually me)for upsetting SIL. FIL thinks it is because i am jealous and agrees with SIL that i need a hobby. Indeed.

I think you need to be supporting BIL to contact the HV and/or SS. They are probably more likely to listen to the father than to more distant relatives. Perhaps this can be turning point where he starts to make a difference.

Stay strong, OP. You're doing just the right things, and it's to be expected that some of the other parties in this scenario will not welcome your and your DP's input and will try to discourage it any way they can. You're going to need to develop a skin like a rhino's, I fear.

I keep getting more and more distressed by what I read on this thread

It sounds very difficult to stand back and watch this all happening. However, it also sounds like if you want to stay involved you really need to try and get on SIL's side. There is no way of knowing how things will work out when the new baby arrives and it will probably take her time to admit she needs help. If she doesn't turn to you then who will she turn to?
It doesn't sound like you are going to be able to change her mind on any of her parenting decisions so just try to focus on being a good friend and supporting her. She will see that you just want the best for her and your DN.

• the way i feel tonight - no longer have much interest in being friends with SIL and as all flack is directed at me, trying to remain calm. Have resisted many urges to pick up phone and call her. Yep - rhino skin and more seems to be what is expected. Have more than enough in life without taking this on. I am not going to back away from this but equally not gonna let it affect my own family. Would just prefer to let HV / SS take it on.

BIL has texted to ask DP to not tell anyone about BIL worrying so obvious he's not willing to stand up and name it.

Someone asked what SIL was like pre motherhood. We met 18 yrs ago and had a good relationship. She always talked of feeling like i was her sister. I would say that i was the one who listened to her problems/ was a confidante, not the same in return. We used to socialise a bit when younger. Our relationship changed when DD came along, mainly as i didn't have same amount of time to talk etc. She did tell me that she felt jealous and overlooked as i was so into DD. She also used to openly criticise my parenting - didn't "agree" with breastfeeding, babywearing etc. We have laughed tho at that - as she is very much into those exact things.she was a very successful editor who never had a great deal of friends. She was always quite a strong character and could be controlling in certain ways - all socialising would be on her terms with choice of venue / gig etc.

Goodness me

Sil sounds incredibly controlling and also paranoid/fearful with regards to boundaries for the dd.

I really hope this is followed up for the dd and future child.