3 yr old, does and donts, like and dislikes and my high expectations?

[weeonion]

I recently was given the chance to look after my niece for first time. She has NEVER been away from her mother and I mean never away. She has always been in same house / flat as mum so this was a huge thing for us all. She is 3. It has taken 2 years to reach this point - where DN would be allowed to be with other people, without her mum there.

This was part of being a support/ help to my SIL whose 2nd baby is due in a few weeks and was to mean that on labour day and possibly some other times - we could have DN.

DN was originally meant to come to ours for a play date at the weekend. Her mum emailed through a list of advice and instructions for the 2 hours, detailing what dear niece (DN) likes / doesnt like, does do / doesnt do, what we are to do / not do.

The list said that as DN
doesnt like lumpy food - it has to be pureed
doesnt like to feed herself - prefers her mum to feed her
doesnt like teeth brushed - they dont do it
doesnt like car seat - dont use one
doesnt like to sit in a chair - roams while eating
doesnt like getting face / hands washed - they wait until she is in bed at night to do it
doesnt like to be reprimanded - dont do it
doesnt like other children - not have any others around when she is with us (my own dd is ok, she can stay)
doesnt like adults - make sure there is no-one there but myself
doesnt like to hear the word no - dont say it.
doesnt like public transport - dont use it
doesnt like sharing so better for all if she can have what she wants

The list goes on ....
I thought over the past 2 years we had got to a point where we might get a chance to get to know our niece and spend time with her. I am not so sure.
I said that with those all those conditions- i would find it hard to follow them and look after her. I said I was unsure how they thought i would get her to our house and back as they dont use a car seat and I refuse to drive a child around without one and she isnt to go on public transport as she doesnt like it and it is too dirty with germs.

They have come back to me and said that i have too unrealistic and high expectations of a 3 year old's behaviour.

I am now questionning if i expect too much. I dont think i do but maybe??

That was meant to be random,
Not random children

I knew what you meant, I don't think they'll be letting her got to school at 4 seeing as though they've not put her in nursery yet...

I have no idea, she would have had to put down a choice of schools, but it depends on where they are in Scotland as in smaller towns its not as complicated as it seems in England judging by other threads. Generally just a choice between catholic or non catholic schools.

Oh god. I feel awful and i know this isn't about me. DP and i are gonna have chat when he gets in from work about what we are going to do.

been thinking about this overnight. You're right, it's not about you or your relationship with your SIL - it's about your poor DN (and the new baby, when s/he appears) having a responsible adult standing up for their needs.

I was thinking about her when I was brushing DD's teeth this morning - her breath must be pretty foul if she's never brushed her teeth and she will start to get cavities - how will they manage then? And the idea of a pandered, never-disciplined child being around her mother in labour and then a newborn - it just doesn't bear thinking about. She will be consumed with jealousy and her parents have done nothing, nothing to prepare her for this. It sounds like the kind of situation that results in the toddler deliberately hurting the newborn.

It's so fucked up.

I think you have to focus on your DN and get her the help she needs. And thank goodness she has you and your DH in her life. You are a power for the good here.

weeonion I keep thinking about your DN and what a shock she is in for! My DD is 3.5 and she is so aware of what is going on and so different to how you describe your DN I can't imagine how your DN will cope? When is the baby due? And homebirth - holy moly, apart from anything else your SIL and BIL are going to need HUGE support! How often is she breastfeeding?

I haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread but do you live close by to them? There are certain things that I would 100% intervene on like the car seat issue - could you call the police and do it annonomously? As in - 'I just saw this registration plate driving without a car seat'

As for the other stuff - it would make a great Jo Frost (Supernanny) case - I would love to see her deal with the situation! It needs to be an outssider to be honest - you will get shot to pieces if you try and tell them that they are seriously at risk of damaging their child!

That poor child. Not allowed to talk about the bump? How on earth will they deal with it when there is an actual baby??

She isn't going to know what has hit her and it is going to be incredibly distressing. You can't have two children in a house where both get exactly what they want all the time. Will she be allowed to express herself by hitting the baby? Your SIL is probably also going to either feel horribly conflicted and have to start imposing restrictions, or the poor baby is going to be ignored in favour of the demanding child.

It's an impending storm and it will hit.

This is utterly ludicrous. You're definitely not expecting too much.

How is this child going to learn how to cope in life with all this? And how is she going to manage at school if it's the first time she's had to deal with sharing, other children, other adults, and being reprimanded if necessary?

FWIW, DS1 is almost 2.5yrs and he desn't get away with any of that.
No child I know of a similar age gets away with all that.

And the new baby is going to be a terrible shock to your DN if no-one's allowed to mention it to her. I can't imagine how your DN's parents will be able to continue this whole letting DN do whatever she likes business once the new baby arrives. What do they think will happen when the new baby and DN both want attention at the same time?

If your DN has never been told no, or reprimanded, then I'd be very concerned about how she'll react to the new baby, because, let's face it, it's simply not possible for two children to each get 100% of the attention all of the time. And the new baby isn't likely to schedule it's demands for feeding, changing and so on, for whenever suits your DN.

I totally agree with MrsOakenshield.

TBF to your SIL I suspect she is very unwell and that your BIL is just clueless and doesn't know how to deal with it. It sounds very likely that the death of SIL's mum so soon after DN's arrival has had a profound affect on her mental health, but whatever the reason for their behaviour someone needs to step in and ensure your little niece and the new baby get the support they need.

thanks folks.

DP and i had a long long talk last night. guilty tears from both of us!
he is getting in touch with BIL this morning to try and get the HV contacts and he is going to call them later.

We think it is better if DP is seen to take the lead on this - and it is not coming from nosy interferring me! we are going to suggest that I take DN out for long walk at weekend and DP is going to talk with SIL / BIL and possibly use the labour / birth as the impetus for more discussion around boundaries, support and

I have spoken this morning with a local surestart project, asking advice. They suggested HV involvement but felt that is was something SS would not really be concerned about at this stage.

annielweis - you asked about BF. DN is fed throughout the day - not sure currently how many but up to recently it was about 10 times. She is fed to sleep for naps / bedtime and suckles / feeds throughout the night as SIL and DN co-sleep. SIL is planning on tandem feeding and new baby joining her and DN for co-sleeping. I am in NO way critiquing or judging SIL for BF or co-sleepng btw.

BIL sleeps in seperate room and has done since DN was born.

oh - forgot to say. DN will not be going to nursery. I did ask about primary school (which she would start when she is 5). She is to be home schooled.

I havent had a homebirth nor been at one. I asked SIL how MW felt about there just being SIL / BIL and DN there (no other adult is going to be there to help out). SIL said MW thought it was a good idea which i have to honest i was surprised at. Of course we all want it to go smoothly and be as lovely as possible for them but was a bit surprised that there was no need for contingency in case SIL has to go to hospital.

A few months ago - We did talk about us helping out at that time but we will not be needed.

I really hope something changes after input from your DH, being so isolated just isn't healthy.

Well done on getting involved

Co-sleeping with two children is possible, but it requires an older child who understands physical restrictions (like staying on their own side), waiting their turn, sharing and no'. Co-sleeping as planned sounds frankly dangerous for the new baby.

I would be stunned of the mw said the birth plan was a good idea. She probably said something like that having siblings present could be positive provided there were arrangements in case they goy upset or there was an emergency or it was interfering with labour or care.

The usual recommendation if older siblings are to be present at home birth is that there is a dedicated adult for that child to distract them if needed, comfort or reassure them if they are afraid, generally give them attention so that they aren't seeking attention from their parents who can't easily give it, and the big one, take them out if it's proving difficult for them to cope with.

The thing is that if there is a serious emergency and SIL has to be transferred to hospital, if there is nobody else for DN, BIL won't be able to go. Which means that he won't be able to support her or find out news until much later which could be terrifying. 16% (according to homebirth.org.uk and National Birthday Trust survey) transfer to hospital. OK, the vast majority is because either labour has slowed or the mother wants more pain relief, but it's still a pretty high chance that she might have to then go through the rest of labour alone. And if there is a serious complication, that would be even worse to cope with alone.

www.homebirth.org.uk/siblings.htm

This also suggests that labour can sometimes slow down or stop when a mother is aware of her other child(ren) - this could be awful if she has nowhere else to go. The problem is you can't know in advance (it also has lots of positive stories of children being involved/non-fazed) how your child will react.

Oh what a difficult and upsetting situation OP. You sound so worried and I can understand why.

I hope the talk goes OK this weekend. I have a feeling though that it won't . They won't want to hear, let alone listen. Let alone do anything

Well, there are no plans to have another adult there and there is no-one else but us that could help out. I had thought that if DN was more used to us / our home, then if needed, we could have her. SIL doesn't think that is necessary. I cant imagine how it might be - BIL is never allowed to comfort DN. It has to be mum and BF. SIL plans to bf DN during labour if she is upset. It is probably possible but i am just not aware of it.

DP spoke with BIL. DP tried to ask which medical practice they are with but BIL wants to check with SIL first before passing on. DP didn't say what it was for but asked in a "how far are you from yr health centre, was SIzl managing OK to get to appts now she is so close to due date, trying to baby carry DN for long distances, which one is it?etc".
I have rang my own HV for advice - she is calling later as too busy at time to talk.

I don't think it will be possible to breastfeed during labour. I've done a (very quick, TBH) glance through articles I can find which discuss it and all mention nursing in early labour but suggest that once the active stage begins, which of course can last several hours, even for the second baby, the mother will be too busy dealing with contractions to be able to breastfeed. I remember being very sensitive to touch and very particular about how and who could touch me. She can't say she'll be able to breastfeed - she won't know and it's likely that she won't be able to. Plus, if she's feeling uncomfortable and/or trying to meet others' needs rather than concentrating on her own then I'd have thought that's likely to stall labour too, meaning either her DD will need to be removed or she'll have to transfer to hospital. Our bodies won't labour unless they feel totally safe - it's an instinctual thing!

The BF during labour plan doesn't sound all that practical.

It may be possible during early stages, but I can't see it working too well once the contractions really get going. I know everyone's experience of labour is different, but during my labours, I wasn't in any suitable frame of mind to be concentrating on much apart from getting through the contractions.

I hope your HV can help OP. The more I hear, the more this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Did your SIL have an amazingly easy first labour? Because bf-ing during established labour or second stage doesn't sound viable to me.

To put it in perspective, I managed a homebirth with DD1 sleeping upstairs. But she was used to sleeping on her own, woke a couple of times from all the commotion (I was quite loud ) and was easily resettled by DH. I don't see how a child used to proximity of her mother day and night and bf-ing through the night is going to cope with the inevitable separation, especially without any preparation. And I don't see how any mother is going to manage that kind of intense parenting whilst in labour herself.

When you say your BIL is never allowed to comfort his daughter, is that by her or by her mother? The more you write, the more it sounds like your SIL might have some serious mental health issues going on herself and need some proper support, of a professional nature.

DP tried to ask which medical practice they are with but BIL wants to check with SIL first before passing on.

Wow. Can your imagine being this secretive and isolated?! Do you think your SIL is emotionally abusive to your BIL? She is just so, incredibly controlling. Bizarre behaviour.

God how appalling - can't believe what I'm reading. She really does sound like she has mh problems tbh I do hope you get through to the GP/GV.

I would honestly speak to the police about the car seat though. You can do it anonymously. It is unspeakably dangerous. I would report any member of my family for doing this if they refused to see reason about it.

Are there no grandparents around, on either side?

Thing is though a 3 year old is plausibly big enough to mostly fit into the adult seatbelt. NOT safely, or legally, but years ago 3 year olds didn't have car seats. I've used a car without a car seat on very scant occasion and I think DS was about 3 or 4 when I started putting him on his own seat with belt rather than holding him on my lap unrestrained.