3 yr old, does and donts, like and dislikes and my high expectations?

[weeonion]

I recently was given the chance to look after my niece for first time. She has NEVER been away from her mother and I mean never away. She has always been in same house / flat as mum so this was a huge thing for us all. She is 3. It has taken 2 years to reach this point - where DN would be allowed to be with other people, without her mum there.

This was part of being a support/ help to my SIL whose 2nd baby is due in a few weeks and was to mean that on labour day and possibly some other times - we could have DN.

DN was originally meant to come to ours for a play date at the weekend. Her mum emailed through a list of advice and instructions for the 2 hours, detailing what dear niece (DN) likes / doesnt like, does do / doesnt do, what we are to do / not do.

The list said that as DN
doesnt like lumpy food - it has to be pureed
doesnt like to feed herself - prefers her mum to feed her
doesnt like teeth brushed - they dont do it
doesnt like car seat - dont use one
doesnt like to sit in a chair - roams while eating
doesnt like getting face / hands washed - they wait until she is in bed at night to do it
doesnt like to be reprimanded - dont do it
doesnt like other children - not have any others around when she is with us (my own dd is ok, she can stay)
doesnt like adults - make sure there is no-one there but myself
doesnt like to hear the word no - dont say it.
doesnt like public transport - dont use it
doesnt like sharing so better for all if she can have what she wants

The list goes on ....
I thought over the past 2 years we had got to a point where we might get a chance to get to know our niece and spend time with her. I am not so sure.
I said that with those all those conditions- i would find it hard to follow them and look after her. I said I was unsure how they thought i would get her to our house and back as they dont use a car seat and I refuse to drive a child around without one and she isnt to go on public transport as she doesnt like it and it is too dirty with germs.

They have come back to me and said that i have too unrealistic and high expectations of a 3 year old's behaviour.

I am now questionning if i expect too much. I dont think i do but maybe??

What does your BIL think... does he think there's a problem?

Are they following a particular parenting style, OP?

Can't remember what it's called, but isn't there one that refuses to put any demands on the child at all?

I know its uncomfortable and not a popular option but I would inform SS/HV or police on the car seat issue. Sorry but the car seat thing is totally unacceptable, dangerous and illegal.

Your in an awful position but this goes far beyond them being precious and particular. They are not meeting her emotional needs and are doing her such a disservice. I feel awful for that child - she (and her parents) will have nothing but problems if this continues.

that's unconditional parenting, I think, and what these two are doing isn't it!

I really do think you've got to do it, I feel there's nothing to lose, and for that poor child, there's no time to lose.

Or, and I have no idea how this kind of thing works, can you report them to the police for having no car seat - would that trigger intervention by SS?

I don't actually think they are struggling at all - I just think they are utterly utterly deluded.

I've never heard of anything that advocates not teaching a child how to share or expecting them to use a car seat. And even Dr Sears, proponent of attachment parenting shares a cautionary tale in his parenting book about their eldest DD whose teeth they never forced her to brush, and who ended up with loads of cavities because of it.

I think it's not surprising they don't have many friends - not in a "they sound awful" way but just in the way they don't seem to have had much input - I mean, even if you follow some amazingly hippy parenting style you'd be taken aback if lots of people were shocked by you not using a car seat, or you got an angry response from other parents at toddler groups when you let your child go around grabbing all of the other kids' toys.

I expect they have sort of evolved from the baby stage, where things CAN be very child-centred with absolutely no problem at all, (I mean, see the entire PFB thread where we all laugh at ourselves for it!) but because they're in their own little bubble with not much input, and are perhaps over-anxious about upsetting her or disturbing the positive relationship between her and them, or are feeling guilty/trying to overcompensate for something or other, but somehow they haven't realised that what they are doing has reached a totally ridiculous level and is actually harmful to their little girl.

I feel really sorry for your dn, hope something gets sorted before the new baby arrives as its going to be horrible for everyone in that house.
My 6 month old baby feeds himself lumpy food,gets his tooth brushed and face and hands wiped. I'm under no illusion that he will be the perfect child and not want some of these basic things done somedays, but they are non negotiable, same as he sits in a car seat.
I can't understand how or why she's let it get like this, what a nightmare!

Unconditional parenting isn't about putting no demands on a child, no, possibly something like Waldorf philosophy? Although TBH I think you'd be hard pressed to find something that advocated putting no demands on a child ever, because children grow up into adults and adults need skills to cope with the world which they don't learn magically by never being expected or encouraged to do anything ever.

Plus it's totally impractical - everyone demands that their children don't drink bleach, for example, or play with knives. Apart from the car seat example (which is more of a potential than an immediate danger anyway) I doubt they let her put herself in dangerous situations, whether it's by the use of safety equipment and restriction like stairgates and keeping knives in a locked high cupboard or whether they've actively taught her concepts like road safety, "fire is hot" and not to stick metal forks into electric sockets.

Unconditional parenting is about not resorting sanctions, not letting children get away with murder.

not *resorting to sanctions.

Mrs oakenfield - i think they struggled at start but i agree - don't think it is currently that.
I know BIL is very concerned about labour/ birth and how DN will be. Its to be a home birth. He is worried that only way DN is comforted when upset is by her mum and breastfeeding, which may not be possible.during labour.DN has never fallen asleep without being BF and BIL is concerned at what might happen.

I would discuss with HV possibly SS to be honest. That is really really bad.

Well if its a home birth the mws are going to intervene pretty damn quick if a three year

Old is causing ructions

Sorry posted too soon!

I think I remember your previous posts. Things seem to be getting worse rather than improving.

If she's in Scotland she could well be nearer 6 when she starts school, or perhaps they will home educate to avoid the sharing thing.

Sounds like a difficult situation. :( TBH I'm surprised if they are so centred around what their DD is ready for/can cope with that they actually decided to have another child, I know people (who are far less likely to give in to every whim of their child) who have put off having a second because they wanted to focus more fully on the first, or, literally, because they didn't feel the first was ready. I don't think these were "we're actually really struggling to conceive but don't want to talk about it" situations either, they seemed genuine.

I wonder if more of a softly softly approach would be useful. Do they use the internet much do you know? You could direct them towards a really "crunchy" type forum where other parents might be fairly child-led in their parenting and see if they get any good advice from there. Green Parent is good (and has some extremes!) but also would give honest advice in a very kind way - it's a rare beast, but quiet! Or mothering.com has extremes too - it's American so sometimes even more extreme! And a couple of my "hippy parenting" friends used to use Natural Mamas a lot, but I think that's more "U kno yur bubs hun xxx" (unless someone suggests formula, at which point they lynch you alive ) Or a local LLL group might be good, mine were amazingly supportive of the more "out there" stuff but also realistic about limits, boundaries, health etc.

I can see why people have suggested SS but TBH I don't think they'd be that interested or particularly able to do/suggest anything - they clearly really love and care for their DD even if they're a bit clueless and doolally about it all and I think they are well meaning however shocking their parenting is to others. I really hope they manage to sort things out, perhaps the new baby will be a bit of a reality check for them.

Fuck. It gets worse and worse
OP. Mate. I know it's awful but you've GOT to do something about this. Imagine what could happen if and when any of the consequences of these disastrously misguided parenting decisions come to fruition. Not even if your DN was in a car accident - what if all her teeth fall out, or she starts getting kicked out of school after school because she can't behave?

Sorry, but you owe it to your DN to intervene. It doesn't sound as if anyone else can or will.

I remember your previous thread.

This isn't right, or fair, or anything you can leave be and see what happens. You have tried that. But now you need to do what's best for the child, which sounds like outside intervention.

Your niece may just need socialising and boundaries, she may have behavioural issues because she has undiagnosed issues - but either way outside professional support is needed. I'm so sorry, for you and her.

God, poor little DN if they are planning to keep her around for the home birth, presumably with no adult to look after her. How is mum supposed to give birth AND be the only one who can possibly comfort her? Sounds like the worst way to introduce a new sibling.

I DO think it would be good to get the HV involved if you can. Even if they just start them thinking about one problem like the lumpy food for example.

I haven't seen any previous posts... OP would you like to give a bit of previous history... I find this odd, interesting and worrying all at the same time. It really sounds to me like they need lots of help and guidance and general parenting help. We all learn from experience, but this sounds completely not normal parenting to me. It could destroy the child.

Also isolating themselves means that in a very real way you and your DH are the only "outside eyes" on this situation. Is your SIL going to ask the right mw appts/antenatal clinics? A home birth can be wonderful but if be worried about this situation.

It sounds an awful situation for everyone tbh. I can't imagine how frustrated you must be feeling.
But I do think a call to SS is in order, or appraising HV service of everything - although she can opt out of seeing them.
They sound isolated, insular by choice perhaps but it's so so unhealthy.
I have no idea why BIL hasn't done more to protect his child if he is expressing doubts about their choices. It seems to lay it all at SIL's door without actually taking any responsibility at all, either supporting or opposing her.
I'm a right lentil weaver & I am horrified at the neglect of her physical and emotional well being. SIL sounds like she needs someone to step in - now. If she's having a homebirth (no judgment, me too) and rarely has a life outside the flat/her child, coupled with that list, BIL not seeming to be helping to ground things a bit it makes me sad and worried for her. She's so defensive, she now can't trust you? It has echoes of how I have felt at a very dark time. But 3 years and now a new baby? I would call and report them, for all their sakes, what happens if it's school that reports them? How much further will this have progressed with the new baby in this time? You have a broken relationship now, if you repair it it will only last until the next misstep, better to get actual support for your dn and hope sil/bil engage and are supported too and can go through that to build a healthier relationship with you in the future. Because as cruel as it may seem to say I don't think you can be aforce for change in the way that your niece needs even if her parents start talking to you again.

Random children can start school at 4 1/2 in Scotland depends on when their birthday is, the cut off date for birthdays is 1st of march. So if you are born from sept-feb you will start at 4. So ops dn should probably doing her first year of nursery.