I have ruined my 4yr old :(

[prozacmighthelp]

I am sitting here ready to break down in tears and I feel like the worst parent in the world

I need help with my 4.7yr old dd. She used to be such a sweet kind and loving child, now I hardly recognise her anymore.

I stayed at home to raise her after she was born, she was our first child and I wanted to relish her every movement. As a consequence, she hardly spent any time with other people and never had a childminder or babysitter of any kind barr my 2 sisters who sat with her the very very odd night we went to the cinema or somewhere.

I then went on to have a son when dd was 3yrs old. After his birth I began a degree at Uni and left the baby and dd at a childminders. DD cried from the beginning and hated being there (ds loves it). So I removed dd from there as it wasn't fair to the other children the childminder looked after, she would cry and scream and beg for me to be called, and the childminder finally had enough of her disruptive behaviour.

Ds still goes there and I am very happy with that.

But dd is still a problem to me. I placed her in an out of schools club for an hour a day whilst I was at Uni and it went really well, she thrived there, learning a new language and a musical instrument. So when my Uni course finished for the summer I enroled her in the summer club that ran. She cries every morning going to it, she will be fine at home getting ready, and going in the car, but as soon as it is time to get out the car and go in, she tantrums, screams, and kicks. I have been leaving her like that and she is ok after 5 mins and is happy when I go to pick her up. She has been invited to a b'day party on Friday and I know she wiould love to go, right up until it comes to her staying and me going home, even though I will have explained it to her at home, and on the way and she will have agreed that she will be fine and she is safe and she understands that I am going home etc.. it all flies out the window as soon as I go to leave her anywhere

I don't know what I am going to do, she goes to school in Sept and I am scared this will continue every morning when I try to drop her off. I am at the end of my tether, I have requested help from my HV and she has offered me ways of dealing with it, and they have helped in every other aspect, like the tantrums at home have stopped as I ignore her, but I can't ignore her in the morning when she is upsetting the rest of the children in the club. also she never does anything I ask her to, she ignores me, or makes faces at me, she has NO respect whatsoever for me or her father, I feel like I am dealing with her alone as my husband goes to work at 7am and isn't home until almost 7pm as he has to travel far to work. I am exhausted, drained and an emotional wreck

Go easy on me girls, I know it's my parenting that has made her this way, but if it doesn't soon begin to get better I will need prozac or something to stop me from slumping

Oh my, I'm so sorry it is so long, I didn't realise.

What is she like after you have left her at the club? It is worthing toughing it out and being firm about dropping her off and leaving because very often behaviour like that is for your 'benefit'. I bet after a few days she would be fine.

She settles after about 5 minutes or so, but it went on for 4 weeks at the end of term at playgroup and I toughed it out. Has been happening now for 3 weeks at summer club. This morning was the first morning I broke down and cried, I couldn't help it, I feel as if I have failed somehwere. I hate seeing her unhappy, but she acts like a spoilt brat when she screams for me and the thing is she is not spoilt at home, I have attention and time for her, but not material things. I have tried telling her how she makes me feel, her response? "I don't care"

Don't be so hard on yourself. 4 year olds are a funny nreed you know! My ds was 4 in April and is more challenging now than ever before. I think it is because they are so much more aware of what is going on and there language is so much better.

My ds screams the place down if I even pop to the shops - even though I am leaving him with his Daddy! He demands my attention constantly and I can't even wee alone atm. He doesn't seem to understand no, and keeps on asking x 500 hoping we'll give in.

They all go through it. Testing the boundaries I think.

why not try some reward/sticker chart type thing. Say a sticker for everytime you drop her off and she doesn't cause a fuss. Then maybe when she gets a certain number of stickers (say 5) she can have a reward - colouring book or something?

Yes, she does the asking thing too, but if she asks more than once (like for an ice-cream, after we have said yes, in 5 mins, she will ask again) she won't get any at all.

I'm sorry, this might sound petty, but I have it most days, and I can't cope. I even tried to explain my worries to my friend who has 5 of her own, including one my dds age, and she always answers "She is 4, that's what they do" If that's so then why don't I see any others clinging to their mums at the door and screaming?

Is she upset or tantrumming?

How is she being prepared for school - will shae start with shorter sessions. Did she have a settling in period?

Don't be too hard on yourself. Parenting is about having a magic formula. Your dd is unique, and is constantly changing. Teachers are also used to seeing everything!

Hello
I can only echo what northener said. Don't be so hard on yourself. I'm in a similar situation as I have one ds, now three, and he's never been looked after by anyone other than my husband and I.
I too have no idea how to cope with sending him to a nursery-to prepare for school-and I've recently decided that we are just going to have to tough it out.
We tried for a few months prior to the summer break and it's putting it mildly to say that it didn't go well.

I feel like I've failed somewhere along the line also but then I look at, what is otherwise, an extremely confident and outgoing lovely little boy that I just adore and I'm more confused than ever!!

I think you sound like a lovely mum and I hope, for both our sakes, someone posts with a solution
xx

If she is fine after 5 minutes than I don't think there is any real problem with the holiday club. Children sometimes get into habits as much as anything else, and she is in the habit of kicking off when she gets there. She may well do it at first when she starts school, but I'm sure that will be fine too. And it won't be the first time they've seen it! Also, they will probably deal with it for you, which may well be more successful.

As for the other stuff, I know exactly how you feel. Children push the boundaries - it's natural. There are times when I feel myself getting absolutely to the end of my tether with my dd. She is pushing all my buttons at the moment, and, like you, I have a husband who works long hours. I find it easier for us all if we get out of the house. Somewhere where she doesn't have to behave in a particular way. Walks and picnics. It helps to get things in perspective a bit. And I find I like her again.

We all go through it I'm sure, no matter what our parenting styles may be.

Does she have to go to the summer club? Can you use the summer to spend some time with her and get to the bottom of what's upsetting her so much? (I am assuming you're on holiday from university). Do you think it's an attention thing?

Does she know the people running the summer club or is it different to the out of schools club? does she have friends there?

Cece, I tried this too, I even carried a sheet of gold stars with me to playgroup and give her one for getting out the car, one for going through the door and one for going in the room without crying. The next day she said she didn't want the stickers. I have discussed this with her playgroup teachers and they say she is a very clever girl and understands what she is doing. I promise, my stomach washed with waves of nausea when I turn into the road the summer club is on as I know it's going to begin as soon as I stop the engine. It would be easy to say "Ok don't go then" But I need her to go as she is going there when I go back to Uni. My only other choice is pulling out of Uni, and if I do that I will always blame her

I know I sound like I am making excuses, really I am not, I am willing to try anything suggested to me, but most of the things I have tried which is why I am turning here.

Sorry - I didn't mean anty criticism when I said the school may be more successful than you. It reads badly

What I mean is, it breaks the habit of you comforting her when she's having a paddy. And that might work.

my dd2 (age 4) has been doing similar at preschool up to the end of term. one day was particularly bad and i said to the teacher 'shall i just take her home?'. she said, well if you do, you'll never get her to do anything again, ever! and she was right, i just had to brace myself, carry her in literally kicking and screaming. other parents were sympathetic, we've all been there. some days it's easier to cope with than others. also, she was always fine as soon as i left, it really was just a little show to make me feel bad!

Thankyou everyone.

Puddle, just to answer your post, The summer club is ran by the same group that run the playgroup and the after schools club, she had lots of friends there, and they all look happy to see her coming in. Yes it is totally an attention thing.

I would prefer it if she did go to the summer club, it is only 2 days a week not every day. My ds also goes to the childminder 2 days a week to keep him in routine for me going back to Uni. She has even more "me" and "one to one" time with me now than she ever had. The 2 days ds goes to the childminder her and I go and do fun things, we went to softplay last week, and the week before we did a fun trip to a clothes shop that sells adult and kids clothes and tried them on together... we had great fun! But when we went in another shop to get a book for me, she wanted a toy, and I said No, as I had bought her a pair of jeans in the clothes shop, she pushed me and headbutted my arm and growled at me, she turned into a demon right there in front of me. I left the shop and went home, and I couldn't speak to her for the rest of the day

Thank you all for replying.

She's only 4, so she won't be able to really empathise with how yo're feeling about all this. She doesn't care because she's 4, not because she's heartless. And if she's fine after 5 minutes then she's really not traumatised at the thought of going. Honest! Like I said, I reckon it's a habit now. I would (and have in the past with my own children), just drop her off and go. You've tried the reasoning and the comforting, and it doesn't work. If she was genuinely unhappy there I would think again, but it doesn't sound as though she is, and all this is just wearing you out, which has a knock-on effect on how you feel about, and treat, her. Break the cycle.

It's ok BBS, I knew you didn't mean it like that, and I agree with you, I hope you are right. I know it's a habit, a cycle if you like, and I need to break it, but I'm damned if I know how.

You said that ignoring her tantrums works at home, so try it in the mornings as well. Treat it like a tantrum. "Mummy's going now. I'll see you very soon", and then hand her over and go.

Tantrumming whilst out and about - I scoop mine up and we leave. No questions, no cajoling, we just go. Nothing else worked with mine.

And as I said earlier, I try to find situations where they are unlikely to play up, just so I can see how wonderful they are again. How you think of your children, how you feel about them, impacts so much on how you treat them, and in turn how they behave for you.

I'm really not a heartless cow!

And good luck!

Oh dear, poor you. First things first, you haven't 'ruined' her. I know quite a few children (I have a huge extended family) who were unspeakably appalling at 5, in all sorts of different ways, and they've all turned into perfectly pleasant, reasonable adults. And one of ds's best friends staged a major tantrum at school drop-off time for the first year and a half or so. He now skips happily into school like all the other 7yo boys.

Next up, you need to work out to what extent her behaviour results from genuine fear of new situations/separation anxiety, or whether it's learned behaviour because she knows it's a cracking way to wind you up and get attention. The two are not mutually exclusive -- what starts as a perfectly understandable fear can mutate into a major wind-up if you inadvertently react in a way that feeds the whole scenario.

At 4.7, I would be inclined to suspect that she has a fairly shrewd idea of the effect this is having on you and is doing it deliberately, even if there are still traces of genuine fear underneath. I think you do need to emotionally separate from her yourself, tbh -- the fact that you're telling her how she makes you feel suggests that you do actually feel guilty about leaving her, and is giving her an awful lot of power.

In the end, she's not responsible for how you feel. If you've decided that the playscheme is the best place for her (and it seems a perfectly reasonable parenting decision to make for a nearly 5yo) then you should be able to leave her there without feeling guilty. I'd be inclined to toughen up, and say, "I know you sometimes don't like leaving me, but all the other children are having a lovely time at the playscheme. I need to work, and I will come and pick you up at X time when I've finished." Then dump her on a nominated member of staff at the scheme (ideally discuss it with them beforehand) and walk away with your head held high.

Play it cool, don't listen to any fussing or accusations. Don't bribe, cajole or encourage, although you might eventually be able to build in a little ritual on your way to the scheme in the morning, like going past a particular shop for her to buy a bun or something. Don't discuss her behaviour at home, other than to make it clear that you love her very much, she needs to go to playscheme, and if she chooses to make a silly fuss about it, that's her problem.

Thankyou frogs, everything you say has made so much sense. I totally agree that she knows what she is doing. At the minute one member of staff does deal with her, and she is a great one for doing it, she takes no nonsense and will not cajole or bribe her. She clings to my arms and tried to wrap her legs round mine, but L is there and peels her off me as wuick as can be. I wondered if it might be easier if I got my sister to take her to summer club on Wednesday morning to see if she does it with her, but then I can't rely on her every morning as she works. I just wonder if someone else took her would it still happen as she says she wants to come home with me. BBS, I know you are not heartless. My HV give me one good piece of advice, she said when dd is tantruming at home (which she rarely does anymore) to take myself into another room to ignore her and write down her good points.

1. she is kind
2. She is so loving to her brother
3. I love her so much it hurts
4. She has got charisma, I tell myself that she is just spirited..........

Hi, I know you are using a different name, but if you are a stranger to me then I'll choke on my coffee

Here with Psychomum too. Both of us feel that giving in with regards summer club will mean that she will continue to do it. (B is very good at stuff like that). Talk to the summer club people, explain that you need to get her to break it, and that you need to be able to just walk away and leave her. You might have a couple of hard weeks, but she will settle eventually. We had a few weeks of B sobbing her heart out at nursery (only the first 5 mins or so), before she settled fine.

The birthday party - again, explain to the parent in charge that it might happen, and most parents (I think) would be fine with it as long as you have warned them that she will cry, and leave a number for their reassurance that they can contact you (she will settle, but it gives the parent less of the abandoned feeling ).

She will be starting school in September, and yes, it will probably start again, but again (and Psycho has been through this with several now) she will settle.

B is a little nightmare at home (putting it politely). She is better when we are consistent. Tell her exactly what will happen for bad behaviour. For us it is stairs, more bad behaviour is behind gate upstairs. Increase the time each time (start at 4 mins because she is 4). Don't use empty threats - if you threaten something you MUST carry it out. You do have a little while of hell whilst she gets used to it, but it does work. Use your judgement though - if you are about to kill her... put her upstairs behind gate until you calm down - sod the 4 mins on the stairs etc (B now knows when mummy is seriously p*ssed off).

DO NOT QUIT UNI. She will get through it, and you. She knows how nice you are, knows that she has big soppy eyes and that she can pull strings.

It needs to be consistent with Mr Prozac too - he needs to be told/agree to the same rules and discipline, or it all goes to hell (speaking from experience ).

You are such a nice person I want you to be happy.

(Most of this advice is Psychomum telling me what to write cos I am a year or so behind you )

Aw prozac, please don't feel bad. I've no more advice to add to what the excellent frogs and others have already suggested, but from what you say I would say you are doing all the right things! She is obviously a very bright child who, as you say, knows just how to push your buttons.

I'm all for taking responsibility for our children's behaviour but there comes a point where you have to stand back and say "it's a phase, they will get through it" and not blame yourself.

Stick with it. As anniediv says, if you don't, then you are allowing her tantrumming to achieve her desires.

Aw Flame darling you have made me sob. Thankyou so much. Yes, different name. I needed some advice and straight talk. Thankyou psycho mum too!

I am just back from picking her up at summer club and the leader said she was fine after I left this morning and was great all day. She has told them she won't cry next day, but I could tell them differently. I know I am dwelling on the one thing she does, as she has calmed way down at home compared to what she used to be like tantrums and not letting me talk to Dh in an evening. As we were driving out of the club the back door opened and the children got out to play, she started complaining that I had picked her up too early and she didn't get outside. On Wednesday morning I am going to drop her off, walk away and not look back.

Flame, I have pics to send you, will email you.

I have some for you too - B is currently wearing a full outfit of yours... that she put on all by herself

I had a couple of days of walking away from nursery, tears streaming down my cheeks, listening to B cry... she got over it though, and even went on her school trip without me . She is only 3 and already knows how to push the buttons (and even worse - how to tell me "I hurtin mummy" because she is a calpol and arnica addict ), by 4.7 I expect her to be faaaaaaaaaaaaaar too good.

Huge hugs to you - will try and boot Boy off the computer one evening so I can actually talk to you.

xxxx

Oh, sweetheart

Don't have any advice (my sometime clingmonster is only two) - but I wanted to say that it sounds like she's a lovely little girl and you haven't ruined her.

3 of mine have done this (the crying and the tantrumming), and it does start up again after each holiday But if you stay consistent, it does get better, and each time does get shorter. But they try it each time to make sure that you've stayed the same .

DD1 was fine... DD2 evil child, carried on until yr 2. I did the stupid thing of changing 3 different nurseries before realising that I needed to be consistent... DD3 was only like it for nursery... DS1 was first week of nursery, first week of reception, and first week of changing to a new school... DS2 evil bugger. All I am saying on the subject now (now here refusing to tidy and repeating the phrase "evil bugger" ). I'm staying consistent though, and so far it is working, even if it is slow and I'm getting wound up.