I have ruined my 4yr old :(

[prozacmighthelp]

I am sitting here ready to break down in tears and I feel like the worst parent in the world

I need help with my 4.7yr old dd. She used to be such a sweet kind and loving child, now I hardly recognise her anymore.

I stayed at home to raise her after she was born, she was our first child and I wanted to relish her every movement. As a consequence, she hardly spent any time with other people and never had a childminder or babysitter of any kind barr my 2 sisters who sat with her the very very odd night we went to the cinema or somewhere.

I then went on to have a son when dd was 3yrs old. After his birth I began a degree at Uni and left the baby and dd at a childminders. DD cried from the beginning and hated being there (ds loves it). So I removed dd from there as it wasn't fair to the other children the childminder looked after, she would cry and scream and beg for me to be called, and the childminder finally had enough of her disruptive behaviour.

Ds still goes there and I am very happy with that.

But dd is still a problem to me. I placed her in an out of schools club for an hour a day whilst I was at Uni and it went really well, she thrived there, learning a new language and a musical instrument. So when my Uni course finished for the summer I enroled her in the summer club that ran. She cries every morning going to it, she will be fine at home getting ready, and going in the car, but as soon as it is time to get out the car and go in, she tantrums, screams, and kicks. I have been leaving her like that and she is ok after 5 mins and is happy when I go to pick her up. She has been invited to a b'day party on Friday and I know she wiould love to go, right up until it comes to her staying and me going home, even though I will have explained it to her at home, and on the way and she will have agreed that she will be fine and she is safe and she understands that I am going home etc.. it all flies out the window as soon as I go to leave her anywhere

I don't know what I am going to do, she goes to school in Sept and I am scared this will continue every morning when I try to drop her off. I am at the end of my tether, I have requested help from my HV and she has offered me ways of dealing with it, and they have helped in every other aspect, like the tantrums at home have stopped as I ignore her, but I can't ignore her in the morning when she is upsetting the rest of the children in the club. also she never does anything I ask her to, she ignores me, or makes faces at me, she has NO respect whatsoever for me or her father, I feel like I am dealing with her alone as my husband goes to work at 7am and isn't home until almost 7pm as he has to travel far to work. I am exhausted, drained and an emotional wreck

Go easy on me girls, I know it's my parenting that has made her this way, but if it doesn't soon begin to get better I will need prozac or something to stop me from slumping

I know I try to remain consistent, but sometimes, just sometimes, I get so tired of it all. I feel like she hates me. I don;t have an easy relationship with my MIL but kast Saturday I even let dd go down there for 3 hours as I was so fed up with listening to her all week I needed a break, after she came home she had a massive tantrum (after not having one for weeks) and said she loved nanny more than me and wanted to live there. (believe me, at that time I could have quite gladly packed a bag for her!)

I had to change her from the childminder though, it wasn't fair on her, or her kids, or the ones she minded.

I remember the stuff with the childminder - you did the right thing changing her from there, sometimes not being consistent is needed iyswim.

You were right to listen to your own child and get it right.

One of the times that I changed Holly was the right thing to do... but one it did backfire.

Its all a learning curve with children, and always is.

The reason I said about the change was more to stop you pulling her out of holiday club because she is playign up and not because she needs to iyswim.

prozac, I do sympathise as I have a DS who starts school in Sept but still cried almost every morning I left him at pre-school. I don't think he was as dramatic as your DD though; but I totally agree with frogs about you 'toughening up' - sorry, it's not the easiest thing to hear; but I had my mum to say it to me, and having someone else say it who has had to DO it, makes it mean more I think; it is basically cutting off emotionally from your DD at the point of separation. She will be fine, she will enjoy herself, and being a good parent to her means not only attention and time from you (which she obviously gets in abundance, lucky girl) but also it means you giving her the opportunity of a life independent of you and home. So if you don't carry on leaving her you do her no favours (as you know already) It is worth simply hardening your heart to it, cutting off; SOOOO not easy to do and it's the thing I have struggled so hard with; but I do believe children can smell indecision and worry from their mums and this makes them worse; if she knows you are like a brick wall on the issue it gives her no room for manouevre!

As regards the other behaviour (having a nice pressie in shop then being unable to wiat while you get a book etc) my DS would be the same; it's a struggle for many many 4 yr olds to delay their own gratification, and they live in the moment so they don't think "well, I just got something nice so I don't want that next thing..." their minds just don't have the maturity to think that way yet but you did the right thing not to give in - cos that is how she WILL learn about it. I just don't think you should worry at all about her personality, she's SOOOO normal, obviously bright, and she will be fine; she's just four, that's all!

Thanks SparkleMagic. I know I do have to toughen up so to speak, but she was my firstborn and I idolised her. I just feel I have done something wrong, if I'm honest I was worrying that there was something I was missing in her, I have had chats with a friend who's son has aspergers and another whos son has autism, I know for sure and certain she is not autistic, but some of her tendencies are there, and same for aspergers. I tried to broach this with the HV who said there was "nothing in it" so I stopped worrying about that, but in the back of my head I worry if something has happened to make her worry about me leaving her at places. I told her about the party on Friday and said her friends mum wanted her to go, she asked where I was going, and when I would be back and would it be after the cake was cut and they played for a little while, I said Yes and she said that was fine, so I hope shes ok. She also told daddy tonight that shecried "a wee bit" this morning but after a chat with her teacher she has decided that she is going in with a happy face on Wednesday. I honestly do think the habit needs broken and then it just might be ok, I shall keep reminding myself it is just a phase

I have looked at B for aspergers too - my sister is borderline, and where I see a lot of my sister in her, I have worried that it could be that. BUT - I think that a lot of 3/4 year olds are settled by the same kind of routine and stability that AS children need. She sounds sooo much like B (I had never really realised before ).

Flame, when I was surfing I came across a site that had a questionnaire for people to fill in and answer questions, I got Dh to do it and it came out he was 90 something % aspergers. I worry that maybe dd is too, or she is copying dh's gestures. I will get to the bottom of this if it kills me.( did u get my email?)

Yes I did - the photos are gorgeous. Was the questionnaire the one where if you got over 32 or something that it was a high likelihood?

Personally I think maybe you should just stop talking to her about it .. no more reassurance .. just take her, say goodbye and leave .. let her calm down after her 5 mins tantrum and pick her up at end of day and get on with life

She as learned that she gets lots of attention before being 'away from you', she just needs to unlearn it

Do not worry about school .. lots of children act like this .. she'll settle down in a few weeks

as with many things .. just steel yourself to ignore it .. before you take her (no more talk / reassurance / just matter of fact 'we're off to xx'), whilst she's tantrumming (goodbye darling), after the fact (did you have a nice day)

My DS was 3 when my DD was born. I found the period leading up to him starting school to be a very difficult one. And that included the first term of reception - he found it all a bit much and the constant tiredness affected his behaviour. But the few months before he started was definitely a difficult stage.

Not had time to read all the posts but just to add that my 4 year old dd is often just the same. She is 4.3 and really awful at times. Screeching in the supermarket, blowing raspberries at me, no respect, just all the things you say. For me I think it is middle child syndrome but I think we just try to find too many reasons for things and maybe it is just being age 4.

Last week she was dropped off at the Homestart Lady who has been with her for several months with no problem. This time it was screaming, "no don't go mummy!" and clinging onto my legs. I was horrified but apparently she was OK 5 mins later.

I find it helps if I see how she is when she is OK - like yesterday she was singing away to herself. It's all too easy to focus on the negative behaviour and feel bad about it rather than see how happy your child is most of the time.

It sounds like you have done the absolute best for your dd and she should get out of this phase OK. good luck with school. Got a whole year before my dd starts.

Had this for years with my DS2, on and off but especially after the weekends or holidays. It really helped for him to be given a special job to do as soon as he went in to school (watering a plant?). It is very wearing and I feel for you.

Just read the bit about autism, My first son has autism and I know that dd is OK. Well she may well have a bit of it in her who knows but you would know the difference if you closely observed an autistic child.

All children display odd/extreme behaviours and there is a cross over into 'normality'. However the same behaviour for an autistic child is magnified and much more obsessive.

To give you an example a friend worried about her 5 year old child always wanting people to sit in exactly the same chairs. Had big tantrums about it. Friend ignored the behaviour (which was about exerting control) and he stopped. An autistic child would scream and scream about something like this and they wouldn't be interested in controlling people as people (particularly ones they don't know well) can be viewed as objects the same as the chairs themselves.

HTH

Thankyou, all of you. If anything you have made me see that she is mostly being normal if a bit controlling. Twiglett you are right, my HV told me I had to stop telling her I loved her so many times a day, just at drop off and bed time, I didn't think reassuring your child of your love was a bad thing, but maybe it is a bit much.

So I think we are all agreed it is attention seeking.. I struggle to understand why she needs more attention actually, she has me for a full 2 days a week ALL to herself and we do fun things, most people with sibling don't have the one to one time for a whole day. I am going to break this habit, I am!!

I have just told her we are going to the pool with my sisters and their kids, there followed a huge list of questions like "I bet N will be going in the big pool" "Why didn't you tell me yesterday" etc etc...she then went and is now [packing her bag (toys included) lol

Thankyou all for such good advice x

Ooh thats a point w/r AS - talk to his mum and see how similar DD is to him as a child. B has definate similarities, but not the ones that count iyswim.

don't beat yourself up! I think (hope, for my sake) it's just her age. I was told recently that the summer before my friend's ds and dd started school were the worst summers of her life. That's what I'm holding onto because my dd is foul at the moment, starting school in September.
I have hit the wine tonight after a particularly awful day when she threw a bowl of pasta at me and I threw it back. I feel dreadful. For goodness sake she's 4, I'm 40.
Time for bed and let's hope tomorrow is better (that's what I say every night!)

Prozac - there's such a lot of good advice on this thread, and I'll echo it by saying you sound like a great mum. leaving your child at nursery/childminders/wherever in the first few weeks can be hell, whatever the age. But it's true that they calm down as soon as you leave. If you don't believe it, try hiding from her when you 'leave', observe her and see what happens.

It could be that the arrival of her little brother, coinciding with going to playgroup for the first time, was a lot for her to take when she had had your undivided attention for three years. And boy don't they know how to let you know it!

Being 'cruel to be kind' is the best policy - you will ruin your uni and future career if you give in now. You say yourself she does enjoy her time there, but you need to make the drop-off as short and sweet as possible. Reassure her that you'll pick her up later and that she is safe, but don't respond to entreaties to come home etc. She'll soon realise that you mean business.

FWIW, my son (now 6) became the monster from hell at age 4.7 - he'd just started school and became quite literally a different child! More knowing, more manipulative... more grown-up! It was really hard to get used to. It was like having to realise that my baby wasn't a little one any more, but a child with a mind of his own and a very strong will! He's lovely now, but still has his moments. My youngest is just going through the terrible 2's with avengeance and I'm really looking forward (not) to the next couple of years....!

i have a son about to start school and i was glued to him as a baby (doesnt every one with their first) and when he went to playgroup and i had to leave i had hell.in the end i stayed 3 terms with him then tried leaving a few hours but it never got better so i pulled him out.ive explained that even if he cries he will have to go school and mummy cant stay but will be there to bring him home.ive also talked positively about it and hes looking forward to it at the mofingers crossed)my second child 2 starts platgroup in jan but i dont think there will be a prob as he mixes better.all children are different and handle things differently.you are not the only mum whos child doesnt wanna leave you.they are still very young its to be expected.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You don't know she might have been as she is or totally the opposite. Anyway she very young and you have time to help get over the things she finds hard.

The first thing I would do is stop feeling guilty about leaving her and how the other children/parents are reacting for the club. The staff and the teachers in the school are used to it. I would guarantee that by the time she has finished her first term at school she will have found her own coping mechanisms. Really.

I think that perhaps part of the reason why she still is carrying on like this is because she senses your guilt. Respectfully I suggest you are going to need to be a bit harder and firmer about the whole leaving her thing.

My DD cried every morning at nursery and clung to me and it was hugely stressful. I dreaded her starting school but from day one she loved it and hasn't cried once. You may find your DD is the same.

My son still cries and he's had childcare most of his life. Its just a way of letting me I'm loved!

Hi again, thanks for all the responses.

This morning started off fine, she was in a great mood when she got up, had a huge bowl of cereal and watched a few cartoons, she even picked what fruit she wanted in her lunchbox. As I got out the shower she stood beside me "Mummy I don't want to go today" I totally ignored her, usually I would say "You have to go". She repeated it a few times and I ignored her those times too, making a fuss of her brother. As we drove up the road I didn't talk to her at all, not even small talk that we usually would do. When I pulled in at the summer club she began to pretend she was asleep, but when I pulled the keys out she jumped up, unclicked her seatbelt and picked her own lunchbox up
As I got her out the car she smiled at me, it was a forced smile but at least she wasn't crying as usual. I walked her into her building, and I stopped to talk to one of the young girls who help out, dd walked on and shut her room door behind her!!!!! As I walked out I looked in the window and she was standing talking away animatedly to one of her teachers

When I went to pick her up she was tickled pink and said she hadn't cried once all day and she was so pleased with herself Her teachers were giving her lots of praise and she said to me "It's boring crying, I think I'll make a promise not to cry anymore and I might keep it" So hopefully the next morning will have the same ending...I can't tell you how relieved I was when she went on in to her room this morning, and I can only hope that by taking the advice and not talking about it with her, and ignoring her pleas in the morning will work
Thanks a lot xx

Great, Prozac, sounds like you've cracked it. Now all you need is to stay tough. It sounds like your dd is a smart little operator who knows when she's met her match. And a mum with a degree will be more important for her future than a mum who caved in to her kiddy mindgames.

Really pleased for you.

WELL DONE PROZAC!! hopefully the start of a better system for you and I think I will learn from what you did today when it comes to leaving my teary DS at school....

Frogs, I loved your post, very succinctly put about the degree/mindgames!!!

FRogs, you really do talk sense, thankyou. This is the first time I actually built up courage to ask for help on here and I am so pleased I did

Well done. Good luck keeping it up.