DH wants 2.8 DC to have a bedtime routine

[DuelingFanjo]

I still breastfeed.
We co-sleep.
He no longer naps in the day.

DS feeds to sleep still. My husband as decided we need a routine. Some nights DS will have fallen asleep in the car on the way home from nursery, other nights he will fall asleep while feeing around seven to eight pm. Other nights he will be up gone nine pm.

I think my husband means we should do rapid return or something. There's no chance of DS Avignon his own room at the moment.

Occasionally I do get frustrated by the very late nights but mostly we go with the flow.

What would you do? How woud you achieve 'a routine'?

I've been there with BFing toddlers and work and it's hard going, but then so is trying to get them to stop doing something they aren't ready to stop.

IME this is a good age to introduce new stuff - mine moved to beds at this age or a little before, we made more of a thing of bedtime stories etc. The bedtime feeds naturally fell away, replaced by longer stories now they have the attention span for them. If they joined us in bed during the night then so be it, but the night at least started in the right place.

I would be concerned at only ten hours, it doesn't seem much.

What about aiming for an 8pm bedtime then working backwards if you need to? I don't think your DH is being entirely unreasonable although if your child clearly isn't ready to start transitioning away from what you do currently then he will need to accept that.

But he does have a routine! He's out of the house first thing and getting 10 hours sleep- if he was in bed by 8 op would see a lot less of him.
It sounds like you've got a lot on your plate and this works for you. Has nursery ever mentioned him being tired?
Another thing to consider is that DH might be wishing for more time just the two of you, and just not expressing it at all well.

Catkind, phew. I thought there must be someone who knows what I am talking about. Re the falling asleep on the way home. If he does that I put hm to bed. I wouldn't wake him as I know that would mean he'll be up until midnight!

The reality is that he IS in bed before half with most days but the times that he is up gone ten pm really seems to be annoying my DH lately.

Sorry, that should read before half eight.

I think you need to be a little firm. He understands "five more minutes" surely? Five more minutes then stick to it, bedtime now, night night, nice and neutral. Perhaps a nice engaging and long story CD. Then go to the pub. Your DH can do the rest. Your DS is old enough now for you to discuss this and prepare for it beforehand.

Repeat ad nauseum until he gets the picture - won't take long.

I don't know! I'm a crap parent in many ways but my kids are amazing sleepers!

DS2 (has SN) gets a bottle around 7 in his room which is dark, then is put in his cot, he sometimes chatters to himself but if it hoes on too long then it's 'time for sleep, xx (brothers name) sleeping, sh sh' or similar.

DS1 was put to cot/bed at 7 every night - and just stayed/stays there. Only gets out if he's unwell. A herd of elephants could go through the room and he'd not wake. I have no idea how I achieved this, although when he was very little he would be with us in the sitting room (in a Moses) and that was then brought into our room when we went to bed so I think he got used to sleeping with lots of noise.

But you say you're getting very little sleep and he's waking to feed in the night, so is he really getting 10 hours?

I have to say, having been through severe sleep deprivation myself, I don't know why you wouldn't make some changes that would mean everyone geting a good night's sleep. Most kids his age are perfectly fine with sleeping in their own bed all night, it's not like you would be doing something terrible to him.

You don't have to have a super specific bedtime -- we aim for 8, but will put DS down at 7.45 if he's really tired, or let him stay up til 8.15 if he's playing quietly. But the actual routine is pretty much the same and it takes about 10 minutes to put him to bed, and then he's down for the night. To me that's totally worth not going with the flow completely.

I agree with Mrsg earlier - you don't have to have either a routine or feed to sleep, do you? Our routine is the same every night (2.8 yr old ds) - 7pm ish go up for bath, dry and dressed, milk and story, lights out, song and bed - usually with no complaints, sometimes with a bit of negotiating before he decides he's ready (in that "endearing" 2 yr old way). He's always done things at the same sort of time each day, every since he was a few months old. And a loose routine suits me too so I can plan to catch up on grown up stuff after 8pm. With you, you could skip the cup of cow's milk during story and the song and add the feed to sleep once the lights are out? No reason to give up the feed to sleep until you/bubba want to. My mate still bfs hers (same age) and also finds it very frustrating that it seems to 'allow' her dh to leave the difficult bits to her. Think about what a routine might do for you - can you see any benefits if you could get it to work? If you do decide to try it, you probably need to be consistent over at least a couple of weeks to get over the stubborn 2 year old thing and get the habit going. If not, and you're happy how things are, then no problem. Good luck!

I will say that I speak as mum of dreadful stinkers of sleepers, who woke/wake me all the bloody time. But bedtime is sacred and worth working on IME.

Sorry - just read that first sentence back. I don't mean don't have a routine and don't feed to sleep. I mean it's not an either/or situation - hope that makes sense!

Another thought, I eased out of bedtime feeds by being at work a lot of the time at that age so DH would do bedtime with no milk at all. What happens if you are not home?

Thank you all for being so helpful and responding so quickly, it's really nice.

I think perhaps I need to find out what DH means by 'routine'. If he means dong things in order at set times then I have no problem doing that at all but maybe it would be a bit later than all you half six/seven oclockers! We do try to do the bath, story, bed, boobs, sleep thing anyway.

It's just I suspect he means that ds should be asleep at a set time. Maybe you are right though, if we are consistent with the 'routine' bit then the sleep bit will jut happen naturally?

I'm going to talk to him and will report back. Thank you, you are all lovely.

I fed my son to sleep until he was 3.5 but he had a bedtime routine. Obv, feeding was the final stage in it! We co-slept from about 3am but he went to bed in his own bed (he has an older sister though, so was never alone, which may have helped).

He had bath, story, feed every night and then I crept off. Worked brilliantly for us. When he was nearly four I replaced the feed with a cuddle. He complained a bit but honestly not for long, and it was easier to drop the final feed than I think it would have been without a routine in place. Best of luck.

Can I suggest you get a copy of the no cry sleep solution (I believe there is a toddler version). It has loads of ideas for improving sleep patterns gently.

Hats off to you for managing like this for so long. I would be absolutely beyond shattered! But then I say that as someone who has never coslept and settled my dc in their own rooms from a very early age. I'm a total routine freak. I have two dc, one aged 10 and one aged 14 months and both have always had their naps in their cot, in the dark, and settled for bed at 7 and woken up at 7 from about 12 weeks. (Sorry....! I do think a lot of it is luck however). I have never left them to cry, I just picked them up if they were unhappy, rocked a bit and put them down again and kept doing it until they went to sleep. I've never brought either of them into bed with me as I just wouldn't sleep.

I do think routines are important from having some couple time together as well as from a child point of view too.

According to the NHS website, the recommended hours of sleep is:

2 years
daytime: 1.25 hours
night time: 11.75 hours

3 years
daytime: 1 hour
night time: 11 hours

So at 2.8 years he needs around 13 hours a day.

I do think a routine is very important. It can be one that is adaptable but kept to.

Feeding to sleep is fine. However feeding, reading books, feeding, getting up, calling daddy, feeding again isn't.

Personally I always try not to feed to sleep as can be hard to wean later, so would feed, then bath, in bed, 2 stories and then goodnight. But you can choose what order to do things. However once you decide it needs to stay. So if you decide on stories first then don't go back and read more 20 mins later

We have 2 children, 2 and 3 years so approx same age. They do roughly 8pm-8am, with 2 hr nap for youngest and 1 hr nap for eldest.

Ah I see, I was thinking you meant he was up late because he'd napped in the car. Aww, my littler one's not reached the stage where she can be transferred from car to bed asleep yet. Fond memories of when DS would fall asleep on way home from nursery and stay that way
Could he be sneaking a nap at nursery on the days he's up till 10? DS used to fall asleep in the book corner sometimes after he'd stopped officially napping. It was very obvious when he had as he wasn't tired in the evening.

Ok. We have talked. He definitely wants a proper sleep time, though understands that the routine part is really important and may or may not lead to DS sleeping at the exact same time every day. He's said that he will try to get food on the table by half six as he gets home before me, so then we can have some down time with ds, do a bath and so on. This may mean that I start doing some baths which I can, though our deal has always been that I do the mornings and he does the baths and that was something I fought for pretty hard when I went back to work.

Re the ds getting up and standing at the top of the stairs we have agreed that if ds starts trying to get DH to take him back downstairs etc then DH will come up and take over by reading a story while I go back downstairs. We are also gong to start using language that reinforces the routine, with proper good nights and time limits.

Does this sound like the right kind of plan?

Yes, consistency is the key.

It sounds like you and your DH are on the same wavelength now which is great.

As for you doing some of the baths, if you then get some 'downtime' in the evening it should feel like a reasonable swap!

No helpful suggestions but I feel your pain. DD has always been a mare at bedtime. We do have a routine but it has always involved me laying next to her whilst she goes to sleep which can take forever. When I hear about people whose kids just go to bed on their own I think how does that work? I just can't imagine ever being at the point with DD. The idea of giving her a good night kiss and skipping out seems so alien (we cosleep too).

Also it is annoying when DH (or my mum) suggest changes when they're not the ones who will have to find the energy from somewhere to do it!

Sounds good.

Bedtime 'words' or phrases can also help. Ie: last thing you do is say a little lullaby or ' it's sleepytime x, sweet dreams'. Something you only say at bedtime if that makes sense

I would aim for 8pm bed rather than earlier as you will be rushing yourselves otherwise. Also he doesn't need a bath everyday. So if bathed day before and clean you could sped that time after dinner together like you mention rather than bath faff. ( or all pile in bath together = clean and time :) )

Cross posted! Sounds like a good plan. Good luck with it

DH used the Hesse 'making a rod for our back' which made me bristle. I have been making a rod for my back for almost three years and he's only just noticed . A bot of me thinks this need for routine might be through some kinda outside influence but I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and we've been able to talk about it without getting ourselves into a tizz so that's a relief.