I'm going so wrong. Help.

[Mondaybaby]

A bit of background: My dd is almost 3. I am a single mum. dd is donor conceived so no father on the scene. I work 4days a week. dd has always been bright and spirited and loving and very much loved. I'm finding her ever incresingly bad and impossible to predict tantrums really hard to deal with and could do with some advice. The latest one just now has made me feel like I don't have a clue how to be a good mother. We'd had a quiet morning at home and she knew we were going to a friends birthday party this afternoon. She was watching a film and I told her she couldn't watch it all as we had to get ready to go but we'd watch it later. So at the time when I had to turn the tv off I told her what I was doing and turned the tv off. She started to scream. I approaced her saying something like come on dd, I told you we have to go. She then started to kick me. she kicks and hits me a lot when having meltdowns and it breaks my heart as I have never shown her this kind of behaviour although I admit that when she is tantrumming and behaving like this I have to bite my lip to retain my self control. I can't believe the anger that descends on me when she is out of control and I feel almost out of control too. Anyway, I tried to make her sit on the naughty step which is something I told her about only yesterday. But she wriggled and screamed and kicked until I had to let her go. she ran into the front room and j sat in her room as I needed to calm down. she was hysterically crying. After 5 mins I went calmly into her and tried to calm her down. but it made her worse. She was sobbing. I eventually got her into her push chair and she wanted to sleep. She calmed down but went all withdrawn and looked shocked and exhausted. I feel ill with worry that I am fucking her up and that this is only going to get worse. Some days she is delightful and she is extremely well behaved at nursery. she saves this behaviour just for me. I never thought my child would be like this. I am exhausted and I love her so much. what do I do?

I have three children, including twins and one with ASD. So I have seen many a tantrum.

I think Pictish has got it wrong actually. She is encouraging you to think your child is behaving abnormally, and creating a lot of tension rather than empathy with your child.

I agree with lady who suggested How To Talk in which Time Out is rejected as a strategy, incidentally.

One of the ways having a child with ASD has made me regard tantrums differently is to see that for toddlers it is akin to a panic attack rather than an act of deliberate disobedience. And that goes for older children having tantrums too. Reasoning has no effect but there are loads of stategies to stop child having tantrums in the first place and for defusing them.

The only strategy that never works is to tell a child off for being angry in the first place.

Zero tolerance of violence is a whole different issue, where you teach child to express their anger in different way by empathizing with them and allowing them to express their feelings in words not actions. How to Talk has loads of advice on that.

Please don't take the anger your toddler shows personally or make yourself feel like she is proof of some failure on your part. Children have big emotions and little control over the world around them. Often telly is a flashpoint for all sorts of irrational reactions (perhaps limit it if you know switching it off is a problem - we have that as a big issue with our ASD son of 11, so we have learnt the hard way)

You sound like a very lovely mum, calm and gentle in lots of ways. Being firm is entirely consistent with being empathetic, and Pictish is implying somehow that you have to lay down the law which is a different thing from letting your child know you are on her side and making things safe.

I don't think she is getting enough sleep. If she sleeps from 8.45-6.15 that is 9.5 hours plus 45 min if she has a nap or 8.45-7.30 with no nap it is 10.75 hours. So she is getting 10.25-10.75 hours of sleep. If you look at a source like this the recommended sleep for a 2 year old is 13 hours and for a 3 year old it is 12-13 hours. Depending on her need for sleep she is missing about 2 hours sleep.

Of course the need for sleep does vary between children, but none the less, she may be very tired.

My DD is a similar age and she sleeps from 8pm (ish) to 7.30pm most nights and has the occasional nap of 2 hours (maybe once or twice a week to catch up). My DD isn't particularly prone to tantrumming, though I don't think that we have done anything to make her like this, I think it is a fairly innate thing. However the times when she does go into meltdown mode are invariably when she is tired. She can also be more clingy and less willing to explore new places when she is tired. I don't think I do her or us any favours by not predicting when she will be tired and trying to work a nap in before doing something exciting like a party. It is really hard to have the discipline to get her to nap or to make her go to bed early. I have been known to take her for a drive to get her to have a nap, which is something that I associate more with tiny babies.

I think you need to move bedtime to be earlier. Ideally I would get DD to start bedtime at 7 for a 7.30 lights out. We actually end up with 7.30 for 8. I'd move bedtime back by 15 min every few days until it reaches a point where she is more likely to get 12 hours sleep.

I think tiredness is also a big big part of what you describe and telling a tired 2 3/4 old off does not help. Sometimes Time Out is really just a way of giving a child a breathing space aka a nap at that age. I think that SuperNanny programme used to always overemphasise the naughty step part when I think what Supernanny herself did to sort the problems was to get the children more involved, listen to them, and create simple routines for living which suited small children, when the adults had often complicated matters.

I could not agree more that prevention and distraction strategies are much the best approach, and am hugely pro choice for the age group - with my own, and now with GC's

However, this is one of the areas in which parents begin to teach boundaries. I do agree that a child should never be punished for anger, but they do need to learn that there are right and wrong ways to express that emotion.....they learn to control the emotion, because there is a consequence if it is expressed inappropriately. It sets a firm boundary.
Talking when they have calmed, allows teaching them to say "I am cross" or "I hate this". And we have a responsibility to acknowledge those emotions when they are correctly expressed, even if it isn't possible to work with them. Or actually to ask "are you cross".
The listening to 'good' expression is just as important as the hard boundary for 'wrong' expression.

This is the age group for 'out of control' responses. I think we need to clearly demonstrate that the parent is fully in control even when the child is not, because that offers reassurance and provides clear direction.

And giving clear warning that they have a choice as to whether they continue the behaviour is vital, because it tells them that they have the freedom to work within the acceptable boundary - and will be listened to.

what Supernanny herself did to sort the problems was to get the children more involved, listen to them, and create simple routines for living which suited small children

this ^ too!!!

Haven't posted 'til now but have been following with interest (I have a very spirited DD too, who's 2.6).

I think it's worth mentioning that toddlers do have different styles of tantrumming. I've seen it in action. I know one little girl who'll just lie face down on the floor and sob for half an hour, my DD's style is to scream and stamp her feet a lot - others thrash and hit out. I'm not condoning the violence but it seems to me that that's just OP's DD's way, and yes, as parents we ALL need to try and take control. But I'm certainly not in control of DD's feet stamping and screaming at times. I'm just glad that's all it is.

Another from me OP, it sounds like you have it hard sometimes (as we all do with toddlers) but hats off to any single parent doing it.

Mumnsgran- I like how you've explained things. My DS has had some raging tantrums and I did lots of emotion naming etc which helped. When he disappears into the rage I feel for him so much-I had to fight very hard to master my temper and remember all to clearly how miserable it made me to lose it. The rages have got less intense (at the moment...!) which I think is partly down to him becoming more articulate, partly to do with me demonstrating I follow through (no bedtime story is the one that hit him, He still had his cuddle etc but no story, I wanted to ensure he knew punishment was for the act not about him iykwim). We've also used time outs to calm down & a couple of times he's taken himself off to time out. One day after a particularly fraught tea time which culminated in a 40 total wipeout he suddenly stopped, took some deep breaths, shrugged and said "ooooh, sorry Mummy, I feel better now" and sat beautifully and ate his tea. It kind if proved to me that my thought that sometimes they were emotion overload was right.

I'm sort of braced at the moment for dd (8 months) having them too..,

Ds is generally very kind, well behaved and polite. Our childminder didn't really believe me about the rages until she saw one as they are 'out of character'.

And your friends who won't talk about them? Maybe they've had secret switches fitted?

I think she needs to be in bed earlier. I think they need more like 12-13 hours at that age.

I agree with Mia. I also think a two year old thrashing about is very different to an older child of 6 or 7 being violent. As PPs have touched on, don't toddlers tantrum because they have really strong emotions and but lack the language/understanding to express themselves calmly?

Being a mother is so rewarding and so hard and even though I agree with most of the excellent advice above, I don't believe there is necessarily one 'right' way to parent. Before I had DC I was a bit of a (secretly!) judgemental twat about friends' DC who tantrummed, or slept in their bed, or threw food on the floor. I have been busy eating all of my words.

IMO almost all of us are 'just' doing our best, including OP who, yes, deserves .

The consequences don't have to be time out. That's just my particular method. I only meant that the OP needs to crack down on the hitting and kicking, using whatever consequences suit her own particular household and parenting style. Time out was an example.

I'm not bothered about the lassie's tantrums - they're normal. I AM concerned that the OP and others on this thread seem to think being belted in the course of the tantrum, is somehow acceptable and normal. It isn't, and it needs to stop, by whatever means the OP sees fit.

And I too think the lass needs more sleep. I don't think she hits her mother because she's tired mind you - she hits her mother, because her mother allows it and hasn't put up sufficient barriers to stopping it. Tired or not.

Regarding the sleep- I sometimes don't get back from work until 6.30pm so there is no way I can get her into bed by 7am or 7.30pm. On those nights she is asleep by 9pm. But I will try to make it earlier somehow as I agree sleeping 9am - 6.15am is not enough and does impact on her behaviour.
Mumngran - I read your kind post with interest. It is just that I can not see me putting her into her room and holding the door on her. I just don't think that I can punish her in that way. I don't see her as bad just out of control. Also, what do I do then when she tantrums out of the house? She had a massive tantrum on the tube twice last week. Funnily enough, I think I manage to stay calmer during these public displays than I do when I am home alone. I can't shut her in her room when we are out of the house.
Mia, I think you are right. It is my child's style of tantrumming. (She has always been a thrasher including when she was still in my tummy. She gave the most almighty kicks then and when she was new born her little legs never ever stopped!)
Thank you to everyone for all the . I am running out of vases!
I think one of the things I have taken from all these posts above is that this is normal and I am not on my own and other people have kids who are the same as my dd. And my dd's tantrums are not my fault. I need to work on the aggression but not to mistake her thrashing and loosing control for violence against me. I need to stay calmer and not to take it personally.
This morning, when she has been all calm and lovely, I told her that if she feels like she is going to have a tantrum she needs to use words instead to tell me how she is feeling. And if she does have a tantrum, I am not going to pay her any attention. We will see how it goes.
(I do feel like throwing the TV into the dustbin as this is a massive trigger for tantrums)

On those occasions when she has had a melt down on the tube I usually just let her lie on the floor and scream. People are generally sympathetic or move away. If the train is too busy then pick her up and get off. By the time we get to our stop usually I just stand up and hold out my hand and say, "come on dd, it's time to go" and she picks herself up and I give her a cuddle as the tantrum has burnt itself out. I think she is looking for a way to stop sometimes so the fact we have to get off the tube seems to give punctuation to the tantrum. If that makes sense....

Hi Monday
firstly, I think you should sop thinking about the consequence as "punishment". It is not. It is a consequence of the behaviour not a punishment for it, and it matters that you think of it in that way....because that is what your child needs to take on board. The fact that you create the consequence ( because she is 3 and this is about tantrums ) does not make it 'punishment'. I appreciate the difference may seem subtle, but it is an important one.
Action=consequence is one of the major life lessons for any child.

I don't really understand you saying you could not put her into her bedroom, and close the door? Surely this offers a much calmer, controlled, and anger free reaction than fighting with a child to keep it on a step ....losing, and then having to leave the child (who is essentially then in control of the situation) because you need to be alone to calm down? Please don't read that as criticism ....I don't mean it that way, but did want to find out what you see as preferable.
That said ....my first post does say that every parent should decide on their own appropriate consequences. In advance of the issue happening again, so you have no hesitation in actioning the strategy. It does need to be something you are happy with!! but equally, it may pay to really think through why you feel as you do about some consequences and not others?

As for the Tube .....I agree it can be hard to deal within public, but honestly the approach does work quite quickly if you are absolutely consistent when you apply it. So ...... I would aim to avoid places where you could not use the strategy, for a week or two. That is hard but not as hard as the current issues. Pain = gain.
By then, you should probably only need to get to "2" on the count before the behaviour stops.....although I was known to do the odd 2&1/2 ...2&3/4 if I thought it warranted

Needed to pop back and add that you made me reflect on why I used the 'in the bedroom' consequence. It was because at the very start I decided that mine would benefit from knowing that if temper is getting out of control then the best thing is to leave the situation and have some quiet time alone.
I thought that was a beneficial lesson, too.

I would take the buggy and if she tantrums when out, she goes in the buggy.

I understand what your saying about putting her in the room but I would worry about her becoming more and more upset (which is not nice) if you don't take control

pictish Sun 18-Aug-13 10:26:48

"I'm not bothered about the lassie's tantrums - they're normal. I AM concerned that the OP and others on this thread seem to think being belted in the course of the tantrum, is somehow acceptable and normal. It isn't, and it needs to stop, by whatever means the OP sees fit."

I think you are over-interpreting people's responses. A lot of us were just trying to reassure the OP that she was not a bad parent or had caused her dd's behaviour by somehow getting her parenting wrong.

That is not the same as saying that she has to stand there as a living target. "Normal" and "desirable" are absolutely not the same thing.

My dd was very much a violent tantrummer, but she never got more than one kick or blow in on any one occasion: after that I would restrain her until she calmed down.

Putting her in time out did not work well for us, as she would either thrash things or hurt herself or (if not confined) simply run off. I would have needed a large padded cell for time out to have any effect.

But holding her kept her safe and at the same time gave a clear message that "I am not going to let you hurt anyone, you will not get away with this".

I found that punishing her by withdrawing privileges had little effect as she would get so worked up that she simply didn't care about any consequences.

I would like to add that dd at 16 is a very well behaved and reasonable teenager who does not do strops.

I think you might have to try and see what consequences work for your particular child and situation.

But whatever you, don't feel guilty about making sure she can't hurt anyone: it is the kindest thing you can do to her. The uncontrollable power that comes with a tantrum is very scary for a child; she needs to know that there is somebody there who is strong enough to protect her from that.

What do you need to do when you get home at 6.30 that means bedtime is so late?

Jeez pictish Nobody said that getting belted was normal. Of course it isn't. We were saying that tantrums are normal.

And argymargy please read posts properly before you comment on them. I was making the point that my eldest who is very laid back had never had tantrums. My middle child is very strong willed had lots of them. I've noticed this with friends' children too. In my opinion and in my experience, the child's character does play a part. You may feel differently but please do not call me 'ridiculous'.

I guess we all have different ways of dealing with tantrums and what I have done with my dc has worked out really well for us - removing from the situation, talking calmly and kindly and reassuringly.

I agree wholeheartedly with swanhilda who likens a tantrum to a panic attack. As I said upthread, I can remember having tantrums myself and feeling frightened and angry and unsure how to express myself - so I'd just get on the floor and sob - and there was absolutely no reasoning with me.

Having said that, I never hit/kicked anyone and neither have any of my dc. But they've always been given space to calm down or been removed from the situation/been otherwise distracted so never had the chance. They may have lashed out if I'd tried to hug them or something mid tantrum, I dont know. And I do agree that that needs to be dealt with. But I think it's more important to concentrate on prevention of the hitting and kicking.

I also agree with the posters who've suggested your dd sleeping for a little longer monday, I've found mine a lot better when they're well rested :)

But whatever you, don't feel guilty about making sure she can't hurt anyone: it is the kindest thing you can do to her. The uncontrollable power that comes with a tantrum is very scary for a child; she needs to know that there is somebody there who is strong enough to protect her from that.

Agree with this.

On the most basic level, how can someone, whether they be 3 or 33, have any respect or confidence in a person they know will accept being hit and kicked by them, on a regular basis?

For a child that is confusing stuff, and will not instill any confidence in her regarding her mother's capability! It's too much power for that child to handle!

Whatever your parenting style - that goes without saying. Never mind the tantrums, deal with the aggression.

I take your point pictish but my thought was that the most constructive thing for monday at this point was to be preventing the tantrums from escalating that far by managing them as I've managed my dc tantrums and for me, that's worked well - they calm quickly and have never hit out. I think that drawing attention to her dd's 'aggression' and 'violence' just isn't going to help at this stage.

Things have been much better today. Only one tantrum just before bedtime and no kicking or hitting. I think I have just had more confidence today. I have concentrated on prevention today more and it bore fruit. The tantrum this evening was because I asked her to come and put her pajamas on several times and she ignored me. I told her that if I had to count to 3 then there would be no bedtime story. She started to yell so I counted to 3. This usually works and she comes running in on '2' but tonight she didn't so when I said 3 I said "right, no bedtime stories." (I have never used this as a consequence before as I love our reading time together and it seems wrong to take books away, like taking food away.) She cried and ran around for about 10mins or so. I totally ignored her and got on with a few jobs. She actually calmed down and came to me in her room. I felt very calm. I said 'come and sit on my knee, why are you upset?' She replied 'I scared when you say 3'. So I reminded her that I counted because she did not do as she was told when I asked her to come and put her pj's on. I gave her lots of cuddles and praised her for calming down. I then got her changed with no further difficulty. She was still very upset about the no story consequence and was begging for a bedtime book. I have to admit, and I know what you are going to say, that I did read her a story. I told her very firmly that if this happens again tomorrow night and she doesn't do as she is told when I am getting her changed, that there will be a consequence and I will not read to her. And I really do mean it. I think she was shocked tonight and I doubt that she will do the same thing tomorrow night as I will remind her what I said. And she went to bed very nicely and was asleep by 7.30pm which is amazing.
I hear what everyone is saying about more sleep. I usually cook from scratch when I get in from work which can take 30 mins so I need to cut that time down, especially on days when we don't get home until 6.15pm ish. I think beans on toast will be ok for Monday night dinners! That will give me more time and I think that will help her behaviour.

Well done monday, that's fab . She has done very well tonight to express her feelings to you.

What about batch cooking and freezing? I find it makes life easier :)

But beans on toast is fine too! :)

I batch cook and freeze - so DD and I often have bolognese which defrosts in the microwave while the pasta cooks, chicken curry with freshly cooked rice etc. We also have bought pizza occasionally or a "picnic tea" with wraps or crackers, and other cold stuff. I know other mums who put the slow cooker on so that they have freshly cooked food when they get in - but I am not organised enough to do that.