lies, lies, lies

[sansouci]

dd is lying -- too well. I wish I could say badly but for a 5.6 yr old, she's doing extremely well.

The latest lie was about her homework. Oh no Mummy, we just have to do this. There's no reading tonight.

Lies.

I blew up. Smacked her. Screamed "I hate liars!" at her. Denied her all treats, playing after school with her best friend, etc. I also asked dh to have a word.

So this morning, he said "what do you think we should do about your lying?" "Go to church more often, Dadddy", said she, RC to the core.

It doesn't wash with me.

I'm so upset & a bit too much wine has been consumed this p.m.

Does anyone else have a kid who lies well enough to qualify as a lawyer?

Help.

She seemed the embodiment of perfection when she was born & for years after. Stupid of me to idealise her. Poor little thing!

Ah Orlando that's a lovely idea+
Sansouci, hope you do have a chat with dd.

Fwiw, my dd is incredibly cheeky at the minute. She has driven me mad the last few weeks /days with it and i did this last night.
I told her i was sick of arguing and felt really sad inside. She asked why and i said because i loved her more than anything in the world and felt like she just wanted to argue all the time.
Tonight she was like a different child, she said "i promise not to be cheeky anymore, well...........i promise to try!" which i thought was very smart

Will do. Night, all.

It was the I wanted her to think I hated her that was most troubling I thought.

What about a band round your wrist that you snap when you feel yourself going and then send her to her room.

And for the record, for the "crimes" you describe, yes, I do think lying is fairly normal. It still needs to be dealt with but in an appropriate way.

My DD is 6 and tells similar porkies. If for example she said she didnt have homework I would airily say "Oh, ok then, I'll give your teacher a quick ring just to check why that is"

"errrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmm, ummmmmmmmm Mum, actually I think I got confused, we do have homework"

"oh, do you dear? I hope you were confused and not lying as lying is not nice, we need to tell the truth - you would have been caught out anyway as Miss Teacher would have gotten in touch with me wondering where your homework was and then I would be cross you lied"

"I didnt lie, I was confused"

"ok then, but just remember that about lying, its not good ok?"

"yes"

"ok, now what about this homework, lets get it started"

I know that sounds a bit idealistic but I think this way you sort of skirt round the lying bit as really, its not a serious lie but your proving that your one step ahead and giving the message that lying is not ok.

well said Batters and Freshstart.

Piffle, I would LOVE to talk to you about your post re. your mother. Doubt you wish to share with me but I have some very real problems with an adult who lies and has a mother like the one you describe.

My six year old and 4 year old both lie to suit any given situation. Not too worried just keep on pointing out the wrongness of it! Oh, and never lie to them myself unless absolutely essential. Cannot actually think of a time when I have had to lie to them but have had to rephrase the odd thing.

My mother never swore at us and I have never sworn in her presence - think that says a lot for leading by example.However, I swear a bit to everybody else!

I agree with soapbox and cod. Sansouci - have you ever told a lie? Because I think it's likely there isn't a single person in the world who hasn't at some time or another. Your daughter is very young and if you scream "I hate liars" and hit her you will turn her into a nervous wreck and you will encourage her to be more deceptive because she is scared of you! I have seen this happen to a friend of mine whose parents were very strict.

Your dd is only human. I imagine none of us like to encourage our children to lie but there are lies and lies, and your daughter's lies are not black are they? Please try to put these things in perspective - your dd will not grow up to be a mess just because you didn't jump on her for every single little lie.

sansouci, you sounded so stressed yesterday. I hope you put the day behind you and feel calmer today. I think piffle's posts on this thread have been brilliant - insightful and compassionate. Of course every mother daughter relationship is different, and piffle is only speaking about her own experience, but I think she has some good general advice for you.

I also like freshstart's idea about showing your dd you are always one step ahead. IME lies about school can usually be blown apart if you either talk to the teacher or threaten to talk to the teacher - daily if necessary. After all the teacher wants your dd to do her homework just as much as you, so hopefully won't mind some extra communcation with you about it. If your dd's lies involve other people as in 'so and so told me to do this' make a point of routinely checking with the named person that minute or asap.

I guess if you see why your dd lies about certain things you can work on the underlying reasons.

My son is only 20 months, so I have no advice realy, sorry.

I hope he will turn out not to lie so much, despite his mother being a vile lawyer

In fact I think I will point to politicians and estate agents and tell him they are the best cheats and liers I know

nannyme, would be happy to digress further :)

I did CAT ss as well last night
I hope she is feeling ok today.

Sansouci- wanting your dd to know you hate her and not what she's doing, is wrong imo. I honestly don't want to make you feel worse, but to me that sounds like a bit of an anger issue.
My mother has the same kind of destructive relationiship piffle has i think! She reacted the same as you did if i ever lost something at school, or at home. Pens, my glass, pencil cases-anything. She went beserk hit me and yelled at me. My reaction? to lie for all my worth. If i didn't tell her i had lost something, my homework was late, i had broken something, to my mind i was avoiding an enormous punishment. If when i lost something, my mother told me to be more careful, and ancouraged me to keep a better eye on things i would have felt much more inclined to tell her the truth. Perhaps your dd feels the same way? You can change this though! Just be patient with her, no more yelling or smacking please and keep encouraging her. Give her a reward when she tells the truth, or just say "i'm proud of you for telling me" even if it's something bad.
I hope you're ok Sansouci, i'm not having a go. This just struck a cord with me. Best of luck and do keep talking xxx

I've been thinking these past few days about the advice some of you gave me. Some of the comments have helped me to clarify the reasons for my anger & my OTT response to dd's lying.

I've been lied to so often in the past by both friends & family, which is why I reacted so violently when I realised my own precious, innocent dd was cunning enough at the age of 5 to fool me & lie to me & what's worse, seemed to feel no remorse about doing so! At what age is a child responsible for their actions? Certainly not at 5 but why does she seem to have so little conscience? When I was little, I used to listen to the soundtrack of Pinocchio & I remember Jiminy Cricket singing "When you're in trouble / And you don't know right from wrong / Give a little whistle / And always let your conscience be your guide." When does a child develop a conscience? How does a parent encourage this? How do I nip it (lying & cunning) in the bud? You say lying is "normal" in kids this age but I don't think I know how to deal with that.

I had had too much wine the other night & was feeling quite down -- angry & distressed, too. Sorry for my "attitude" on MN. I needed to vent, I needed to rant. For the record, I could never, ever hate my children & rarely smack them, even a token gesture on the bottom. But sometimes I get pushed to the edge & my temper gets in the way of my reason. I'm sure you've all been there at some point. Maybe you haven't acted out (full parenting marks for you!) but you'll no doubt understand the feeling.

sansooucie i'm so gald to see you back, i keep checkinh this thread in 'threads i', om' to see if you're back on it.

I don't know if there is a set time when children have a conciense(sp). As i said, my dd is 5 and drives me to distraction sometimes. I think all you can do is be a constant in their life and teach them the best you can.

Try at the end of the day to see the very very GOOD things about your dd. Sometimes i find it so easy to get all het up about something my dd has done or said that annoyed me but when you sit on an evening, think about it in percentages. DP and i pfent say when we think of it like that, that 95% of the time dd is a little angel.

I'm glad you are able to see that your anger was misplaced the other night and do hopw you're feeling better today++++++++++

well done ss

I'm glad you're feeling calmer now, ss!

One of the things I used to do when my kids were little and I really couldn't tell what had happened (and I wasn't stressed myself ) was to say gently but very pointedly something like "you know what really happened, don't you?" and leave it hanging in the air.

Also when things were peaceful and we were having a quiet talk, maybe about something else, I would try explaining the boy who cried wolf thing - how essential it is that you will be believed when you are telling the truth about something important.

Hi sansouci - lying is definitely something I wouldn't want my children to do, but I do recognise that it is unfortunately part and parcel of human nature. I would only be really upset if one of my children told black lies iyswim. I think you could discourage her from lying without having such an extreme reaction. I would say that you need to make sure she trusts you - if you remain calm when she has done something wrong then she is less likely to lie imo.

The chewingum thing was sort of funny, actually. I thought "serves her right for chewing ABC gum & then getting it stuck in that hair she's so proud of. that'll teach her!" Off we went to the hairdresser, who cursed & muttered. He managed to get it all out by using ice cubes. (useful tip, btw!)

Then there was this damned necklace thing. My mummy antenna were quivering at this; I knew she was lying but decided to accept her story. "Oh well. Too bad about the necklace." Then, during half-term the week before last, we spent every waking moment together & at one cosy point while reading a story, I said "if you tell me the truth, I promise not to be angry. I don't mind about the necklace but I do mind if you lie to me." She finally confessed to taking it & playing with it & then couldn't remember where she'd put it. "Okay. That's fine. I understand & I'm not cross. Thank you for telling me the truth." Hugs all round, promises to "never, never tell fibs again, Mummy, promise!" Then, last week, she lies to me & dh about her homework. "No, we don't have to do anything but this drawing." First evening I accepted it, especially as I had believed her promise to stop lying, but the next evening when I got the same story, I was suspicious. I know how hard they all work & to have little to no homework 2 nights running is highly unlikely. As it turned out, she was lying. I was tired, it was bedtime & I was furious with her. I lost my temper & the rest of the story you know from previous thread.

Sorry this is long-winded but it does feel wonderful to pour it out. It's been troubling me so much. It's all getting a bit much, what with ds & his spinal infection, never-ending flu for all 4 of us, no sign of spring, etc. Anyway. So that's that.

SS - it takes a big person to come back afterget ting a hostilish response on here!

I really really respect you for doing that!

I'm glad too that you have taken some time to think through what happened!

I know the lying can be difficult to take, but I think it is just because they are still half in and half out of the fantasy world of young childhood, which we kind of encourage! I think they probably develop the first semblings of a conscience around 8-9 yo!

Hi My first ever post (and have probably missed the boat) although have been a silent observer for a long long time. But found your comment on never appearing spring, rounds of flu bugs so true. Am also in France and have endured the longest two weeks of the coldest, bleakest, snowy Feb on record. Give yourself a break - we have bad 'moments 'which in the scale of things means very little. My DD1 also lies but usually in the spirit of fantasy land/wishful thinking like SB said. A few sessions of the school teachers wrath is bound to changer her perespective re the school work at least.

children have a unique ability to hit our buttons but think of yuor dd's behaviour as trying to keep you happy.

We've also all done things that we're a bit ashamed of and lied about it for an easier life.
dd ate gum off the pavement. She knew what your reaction would be and it was - yuck! Much easier to lie than have a ranting mother!

The necklace - she knew she would be in deep trouble if she admitted to losing it. Easy solution -hope mum doesn't notice it's missing and lie.

The homework - she's tired. Homework is boring and in her second language. It's not so unusual to want to lie it away.

As a child I broke my babysitter's hat badge that I wasn't allowed to play with. I lied about it even though she knew I had done it. I broke my mum's best pudding bowl playing with it in the bath. I lied even though I left the evidence of the broken bowl there in the bath.

Today I couldn't face a visit from a rather clingy neighbour so I told her we'd be out (lie 1). I then realised the children might mention that we hadn't been out so lied to them saying we were going out to another friend (lie 2). I then phoned our home phone with my mobile and had an imaginary conversation cancelling the imaginary appointment (lie 3,4,5,6,...).

Am I so unusual? I think I am totally normal as is your dd. Give her a break!

DS is experimenting with er - different forms of the truth. Sometimes it seems devious - his lengthy explanation of his poor lonely friend sitting alone to eat his packed lunch, if only DS could have packed lunch too, to keep him from being sad...only for me to discover that his friend does NOT have packed lunch! Sometimes he seems to project what MIGHT happen, and tells me big boys have been horrible to him - when they have not. Sometimes he looks for excuses as to why something bad has happened - like your dd.

Your dd is not on the road to ruin! I think it is other factors that lead to 'serious' dishonesty - lack of love and respect, lack of self-esteem, feelings of helplesness, isolation and revenge, and whilst I would guess that the vast majority of young children say things that are not true (c'mon - I can rememer being an accomplished fibber, and I bet most MN-ers were the same) I would guess that in the huge majority, this disappears with maturity, and does not lead to criminal, harmful dishonesty.

Is your DH still working abroad? You all seem to be under tremendous pressure - ds still in treatment, dd working in two languages (though how fantastic for her in the long run!), and DH and family far away. It would be too much for me, I think. Your dd is going to be fine - give yourselves a bit of a breather and let standards drop a little?

Hope you're ok, anyway.