Worried Dear Nephew is too rough and my DS shouldn't have to put up with it

[somewherebecomingrain]

DN is now 4.5. He didn't smile much and made very prolonged eye contact as a baby. He spoke extremely early. He is super-brainy but has a slightly aloof quality. He is really into violent language which i've seen elsewhere on mumsnet is normal at that age (thank god for mumsnet)- killing, cutting heads off etc.

DN has ALWAYS done a lot of hitting of my DS (3.5). My beloved sister says it's just a phase but he's done it since my DS was 6 months and he somehow managed to do something to his willy while he was being changed and make him cry.

Both boys are physically a bit wimpish but in opposite ways - DN is strong with thick limbs but can barely bring himself to run. DS runs like crazy but isn't strong, has skinny limbs.

Personalities are opposite though. DN is super-articulate, able to discuss matters more like a much older child or even eerily sometimes like an adult. He is very involved with certain TV series and characters. He loves monster-type toys. He's very very moody - when he's in a good mood (about 30% of the time I'd say) he's sweet, but when he's in a bad mood he hits and just gives off awful vibes. He gets very overwhelmed by big parties and very, very jealous of other people's presents.

DS has been slow to speak although not behind. his conversation is largely describing what he's doing at that moment, or repeating what you've just said. He is extrovert, skipping along to join in anything he sees. He's generally in a good mood. He's huggy and benign, he literally says 'hello trees hello flowers' type stuff.

One unfortunate thing - he has a low pain threshold like his dad. I'm not sure DN hits very hard, but DS feels it.

DS LOVES DN. But DN is in my opinion being a proto-bully. He hits DS and sort of treats him like he has the plague which just guts me. I have to say DS is fairly resilient. I'm not sure he notices any of it except the physical stuff, and he gets outraged rather than slinking away. But I worry he's getting wound up and that this is a damaging experience for him.

In my darkest moments I think DN may have anti-social tendencies. He doesn't seem to care about right and wrong, just what the reward and punishment are. This is not helped by my genuinely beloved sister who uses this a lot to manage him. I'm not sure if she's responding to him or he's responding to her - I suspect a bit of both. She doesn't really manage the hitting and so I am often telling off DN - and usually resorting to threatened punishment (we'll leave if you do it again) as that seems to work best.

If I didn't have DS I'd find DN intriguing, fascinating, entertaining. But I do have DS and actually DN really upsets me.

My sister and i spend a lot of time together but I'm finding it increasingly hard.

AIBU?

Anyone else in a similar situation?

yes may I may actually move so that distance makes us see each other less - that's how bad it is. whereas i wouldn't otherwise.

(Oops I apologise for calling you shitty because I see you've also said sorry about that now.)

The whole situation sounds quite stressful for all involved, if you are seeing them a lot I would be tempted to see them less so your son gets a break.

I do wonder what an outside observer would say. Most older kids do not like younger kids (especially 2 and 3 year olds). Do you let your son follow DN around? Do you let him go and see what he is doing all the time and ask him lots of questions? My DS (5) can get quite angry sometimes and younger children can sometimes trigger it. He is quite a solitary soul and likes to work on things by himself. I try and defuse the situation by making sure he does get periods of time by himself when we have visitors, even if it means asking him to spend some time in his room while everyone else stays downstairs. With certain other children I play quite closely with them to supervise kind sharing and turn taking so he can learn how to be with other children harmoniously.

As an aside I don't think violent language about killing people and cutting off heads is at all normal for 4 year old boys.

Why in earth would you let him 'do something to your sons willy'? Odd. But hey don't knock the enthusiastic trolls.

OP, if you're going to quote people to defend your overreaction, then at least give the poster the courtesy of quoting them fully. D0oin actually said, "I just read the title and first 4 words of your post and disgusted you would refere to 4 year old as psycho". That was not a personal attack on you. It was shock that you would refer to such a small child in that manner. Now, unless your DN is called Kevin, then I agree with D0oin. But also, as you have apologised for it a couple of times, you will perhaps agree with D0oin as well and move on?

My DS and DN have a similar relationship. However DN is still a child and his behaviour almost always stems from tiredness or jealousy (which is completely normal, my DS can push and shove when he feels the same way) DS was also punched in the face at 6mo, bitten on the head or face more times than I can count, stamped on and recently nearly throttled. But this is because DN is without boundaries which is not his fault.

My disdain is pointed at SIL because I feel that her actions make DN angry and violent. She often winds him up and MIL has to tell her off (but that's another story)

Anyway, your DN doesn't sound odd or strange. He's just a child. Talk to your sister.

I did think it was disgusting O.P and i dont think it is acceptable language. Not only for the unfair representation it gives to your DN, but because people in society feel it is ok to use terms like this to describe people who have mental health problems, autism and learning disabilities and i just dont find it at all acceptable, wether genuine or tongue in cheek. If people are not pulled up on it is accepted and continues to be acceptable language for anyone who is slightly different.

however despite that you have appologised and realise it has offended or not been accepted. I think posters should recognise that and now you have applogised you are within your right to over look and not respond any further to those who do pull you up.

I think the responces angered you O.P, but now re read the thread and look at the advice you have been given because some of it is actauly quite good and sensible, some may make you think about how you project your self but that is also good advice.

re the willy ds was just lying there on the changing mat and i was opening a nappy and looking at him thinking how gorgeous he was and dn leapt over and his hand made contact with the willy and then there were tears. DN was at stage when just getting interested in willies, his dad's willy the whole concept.
i don't know what dn did, i know my son has a low pain threshold so maybenot very much

ok have to admit this advcie is great and very helpful

dangerous fair point - I totally accept this. I understand people's reactions now. It is like using the word 'poof' for gay people etc. I feel very sorry now.

Is reward/punishment wrong? I use it all the time. I don't think 4 yos generally do have 'a sense of right and wrong', they just learn what makes the people aroun them cross, rather than having a moral system of judgement! So your DN doesn't sound that unusual to me on that score.

It's the hitting that would be the big issue for me here, and so this is one you need to talk to your sister about. When DN hits he must be told to stop and told of the consquences if he does it again, and those must be followed through, whether it is time out or stopping playing and going home or whatever. It will probably help to have them come to your house to start this, as it's easier for you to be in control of discipline on home ground.

Otherwise, you have to rethink the time they spend together if you're genuinely concerned for your DS - he should come first.

Oh ffs,,,, some people really need to get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It sounds to me that this little boy needs to be assessed as he may have a special need ... Good luck op

my sister is hopeless at disciplining DN. she has phases where she's superb but then just slacks off
so i have to do it.
i find that very stressful.

knittynoodle I can relate to that. There are strong opinions around the family. My parents think all is fine but they have made that mistake before! (my baggage). My MIL is more concerned.

Talk to your DSis. Explain that, although you understand that DNs behaviour is quite normal for a 4yo, your DS finds it upsetting. Tell her that you cannot let the situation continue and that you hope you have her support in helping your DCs get on together.

Your DN needs to learn that his behaviour is not acceptable. When he does or says something to upset your DS, try the following:

1. Get down to his eye level.
2. tell him firmly and clearly that it is not kind to hurt/snatch/call names/whatever.
3. this would be a good time for your DSis to step in and give your DN some sort of consequence or time out - but if she chooses not to, then so be it, just continue to the next step.
4. turn your back on your DN, ignore him. Give your DS lots of attention and reassurance, make sure he is OK and happy to carry on playing.

Repeat ad infinitum.

5. when DN does something kind with DS, shares a toy, plays nicely alongside him make a point of saying that he is being kind sharing, or how much you appreciate him looking after his little cousin, or how helpful he is. Find something you can praise and make a wee fuss about.

He'll soon get the idea that it's much more fun to be included and praised.

Oh, and he'll be starting school soon and will learn lots of new ways to interact socially so you may see some changes in him over the coming months anyway.

eightieschick

there is a debate about reward/punishment versus unconditional parenting. There is also evidence that kids who learn not to do things because they are wrong are more likely not to do it. whereas if you stop doing somethig because you fear a punishment, will be much more likely to go back to it when the threat of punishment seems to have lifted.

reward/punishment definitely has its place and right/wrong only comes in gradually but it shouldn't be exclusively about reward/punishment

I always remind myself that every child has something good about them and when the two play together nicely, it can be so sweet. I think when they are older this won't be an issue for you at all. Since my DS is now big enough to whack him back the dynamic has definitely changed!

Of course you want to protect your DS and rightly so, but point the finger in the right direction.

that is a good point about reward and punishment Op and if your DN at 4.5 is being guided in right from wrong then he will continue to behave like this. I think if your dsis is not doing this then you could subtly be the one tell dn that hurting his cousin is wrong.

I think you'd have got a lot more support if you hadn't used the word psycho to describe a child. What you actually wrote in your OP wasn't that bad.

thanks piprabbit i do do a lot of that and IT DOESN'T WORK! he's too clever! he's not getting caught out with that old 'withdrawal of attention' trick.Way too clever.

see what i mean? he's not a bad chap at all (apart from the hitting and the disparagement of my DS) but he is ... he is unusual. He could be a politician or a master criminal when he grows up! (or artist -a lso very good at art)

but i think you're right - tell dear sis that there may be nothing wrong with it, but it upsets me. at least we will focus on it a bit more.

maybe it's more my problem than my DS - he seems quite resilient. it's all very mysterious - children's social dynamics are like mercury- they move quick as a flash, I should accept i am not omniscient!

maryz I am so sorry. your Sil is stupid. I would be so greatful if there was a diagnosis of something. It's all about understanding what is going on. Can you talk to her?

Again I feel so sorry about use of the P-word

But there is an option that falls between reward and punishment, and unconditional parenting - which is just natural consequences. If you hit someone, they will be taken away and comforted. If you throw an egg on the floor, it needs cleaning up and you will be helping. And so on and so on. This way the child learns that actions have consequences but without the emotional extremes of lots of anger/punishment, or endless attention and no consequences at all.

I'm not saying it's perfect but I prefer it to the other options.

I found also taking a back seat helped with my dn and dd as sometimes they would expect an adult to tell the other one off and letting them work things out them selfs (when dn was not hitting) was helpfull as they would often then quickly move on and things where not esculated by the adult interviening. However this only worked by ensuring they only played together in the same room as the adults at all times.

Also, he will use his cleverness to make it seem like he's not affected but you should still carry on. Not least to show your DS that when someone treats him like that, you care and will step in. I think over time it may help your DN to see that a nice way of behaving could have better results for him IYSWIM.

Unfortunately, unless your DSis agrees to you taking firmer action I don't see that there is an awful let else you can do without her help. I suppose you could ask them both to leave (or leave yourself if you are at their house) until they get the message that you aren't putting up with it.
Not in an aggressive way - just "Oh dear, DN is getting overexcited and DS is upset so I think it's time to leave now."