dd 4.10 ruining weekends/days out/hols with behaviour.

[familyfun]

how do you punish/prevent bad behaviour without punishing whole family.

dd is annoying for the want of a better word, she purposefully winds people up for a reaction.

she calls her sister over, then snatches her toy or pushes her away. she hides her teddys high up. she chases her knowing she will crash and hurt herself.

she climbs on the back of the settee, stands on sisters potty, blocks doorframe so sister cant get passed.

i tell her not to do things and explain why. she agrees and carries on doing the same things over and over.

at dinner she calls her sister and then taps her own head so sister taps her head while holding yoghurt and gets covered.

i am fed up of saying dd1 stop this stop that. outside we have no fun as dd1 wont stop doing things she knows are wrong.

worst time is weekends/day trips, i can only presume she gets overexcited, but when i say come and get your hair done she runs off and hides under the table and then she wont get dressed and then she wont put her shoes on so by the time we go out we have all shouted at her or dp has picked her up and moved her to where he wants her to put her shoes on and dd1 is crying and she screams and screams like a tantrumming toddler. dd2 cries and backs away from her. if we say ok we wont go out then we all suffer.

we have tried ignoring this as we dont want to nag and shout, if you ignore dd tapping the tabel she will sit there indefinitely doing it just for the reaction. reward chards dont work as she knows what she should do and doesnt do it on purpose for attention.

at school she is good, people always comment on how sensible she is and grown up and well bahved and generally when out she is (apart from asking for everything in shope) its just in the house for us and sometimes her grandparents that she is like this.

dd has time at the park, swimming as a family most weeks, reading time to us and we read to her, we play games, i help with homework, so gets attention.

where are we going wrong?

also she is never satisfied, she always wants more, if you give her some chocolate she says its not enough, if she has a magazo=ine one day she will ask for another the next day and cry when told no, she cries if she doesnt get the straw/cup she wants, she acts like a spoilt brat in shops asking for everything and moaning/shouting.

we dont buy her everything she wants, mainly just birthdays and xmas, her easter eggs are under the stairs and they have a bit a few times a week so she isnt spoiled by us but grandparents buy her toys/books/chocolate nearly every week which imo isnt helping.

When she cries after you have told her no, what do you do?
It may well be that she needs "loving limits" -- i.e. you will set the limits that your family needs, and when she protests against those limits, you show her that you empathise with her feelings, listen to her crying compassionately and allow her to relieve the tensions that every child accumulates over most days. Listening and possibly holding her whilst she tantrums and cries sends her the message that she has both limits and emotional safety to react to them. CHildren thrive in such environment and over time, become much more cooperative.
This is discussed in greater detail in Aletha Solter's "Helping young children flourish".

How much attention does she get when she does these things? The best thing for DS1 when he does these things is time out on his own. HE has to leave the area where the rest of the family is. Nothing else ever worked.

If his behaviour is so bad that an outing needs to be cancelled, then we try to make sure it is only cancelled for him, and not DS2, so either I or my DH will still take DS2 out, and DS1 stays home, but certain favourite toys are put away, and he doesn't get to do anything 'special' to avoid making it a special treat. When DS2 comes home with something special from his outing it really brings it home to DS1 that he missed out.

You say she gets attention, perhaps it's too much attention. If she is older by a few years, does she ever get to spend time at home alone? To play with her toys on her own?

Also, some 'sole' attention, and activities of her choice. DH and I have tried to occasionally spend time with 1 of our DSs on our own, and let them choose their treat, swapping DSs. The first time we did this and I got to spend time with DS1 on my own I was amazed at how lovely that time was, I just never get to spend time with him on my own.

It does sound like she is looking for reasons to cry and release her feelings like mayamama says. Hi mayamama I love your posts btw!
If you send her away from the rest of the family that might work temporarily but in the long run it causes more problems because the child feels so rejected and hurt that they have more upset feelings to release. But of course like mayamama says a family still needs limits of what is acceptable behavior. So take her away from a situation when she is behaving unacceptably but never leave her alone. If she cries listen to her, hold her and comfort her. This is how she will become a 'better' behaved child. I think the idea that we ignore bad behavior so as not to encourage it is ingrained in us but actually it's when a child is behaving badly that they most need our love and attention. That doesn't mean to give in and always give them what they want, but to support them when they are upset.

Complete opposite of para2 here - a child who has been naughty (knowingly and on purpose) and who then cries because of the consequence ( being put in the corner, being firmly told off etc) shouldn't be cuddled and listened to and empathised with.
The child needs to cry, to stop crying and to get their mind on something else without the adult interfering at all.
As soon as an adult intervenes the child learns that an adult is needed for them to gain frontal-lobe control over their emotions. This done repeatedly will convince a child that they themselves are not capable of gaining self-control and will perpetuate dependancy on adults.
Three to four is the perfect age for the child to start getting a bit of self-control.

hmmm. I am pretty sure, that children need support (and most adults too!) for a lot longer than age 3, before they are left alone in the big wild world of strong emotions! Not sure where the research is will have to check again, but I think that the role of the purpose is basically to help child manage their emotions, because they can't deal with them alone because of having an immature brain.

thank you, i will look for that book at the library.
if we tell her no, we stick to our decision but she will scream and scream, not asad cry, an angry whaaa whaaa whaa for as long as she can manage.
i sometimes put her on the naughty step to calm down and she says sorry and doesnt know why she was misbahaving.
i dont ever get much time alone with her, in the mornings we rush to school although i always talk with her while we walk there, after school we play at home or at the park but little sister is there too, then i do dinner and we all eat together, then there is an hour till bathtime. dp works most saturdays aswell, and as sunday is our only family day we all go swimming or parks or softplay so she gets no one-to-one time.
dd2 is 18 months so there is a 3 yr gap, they play together nicely, especially when im out the room, but when im there dd1 blocks her/snatches from her/winds her up for attention.
last night dd1 climbed up the heated towel rail/radiator in the bathroom and i shouted no and explained how dangerous it was, she did it again when i was in the bath??? then she sat on the wall heater??? its like she picks the most destructive thing for max attention and does it.

hmmm. I am pretty sure, that children need support (and most adults too!) for a lot longer than age 3, before they are left alone in the big wild world of strong emotions! Not sure where the research is will have to check again, but I think that the role of the purpose is basically to help child manage their emotions, because they can't deal with them alone because of having an immature brain.
I have to say that i find it so strange that adults still believe children should be left alone when they have emotional upsets? Can nobody else remember how distressing it is to a young child?

im not sure why dd is upset so often though, she is very emotional, she cried today as i told her to eat at the table not the sofa despite the fact we always east at the table so it was nothing new.

Ummmmmm - so when you say no, she screams for as long as she possibly can - what then happens ?
I'd guess at some point - after an awful lot of crying/upset/screaming from her someone around her, mum,dad,nan,stranger in a shop - will communicate with her in some way - talking, hug, even being shouted at, some form of communication that on the surface seems to start the process of consoling her and edging her back to a calmer frame of mind.
Big mistake.
If truly lfet to it she WILL move through imense frustration and upset into againing self control, idealy she would have been learning self-soothing and self-control skills early on, so know ahe really can scream merry hell and will do so because for her she does not need to sort herself out, there has always been someone else to do it for her.
She is emotionally stronger than you think, give her the chance to prove it, don't leap in and rescue her from herself - honestly she CAN do it and once done the time gap of upset will shrink every time she regains control herself.

well today we carried on eating breakfast at the table and she just came over and joined in.

her school are also saying she is emotionally young for her age but she is only 4 so one of the youngest in reception and has improved a lot regarding clinginess/tears, she now skips in happily.

hey family fun, I think she may not know herself either! Sometimes you never know and it doesn't really matter, the main thing is just to listen to the crying. I think that's another prime example of crying over something she knows she can't do anyway. She's looking for a way to cry, just try it once, honestly and you'll see how relaxed and chilled out she will be afterwards if you support her through the crying.
Sometimes after the crying she might tell you what was upsetting her, for isntance a child bullying at playgroup or something or other, but often not.

rosemary -- I think if we were really so strong as to not need support there would be a lot less therapists in the world lol! I agree with you to allow them to move through the upset, but there's no reason why it has to be alone. Self-control evolves after years of love basically, and leaving kids alone is not a loving act, it's a punishing one. How would you like it if you were crying and a friend walked away, It's the same priniple. here's a great article about why time outs are really damaging to kids. and all this self-soothing stuff is a load of b**lcks IMHO. just a load of western mentality about kids needing to be independent,

[www.superprotectivefactor.com/2011/10/27/whats-wrong-with-time-outs/]

Thats's it !

"she just came over and joined in " - well done you ! I'm sure you were munchy breakfast through gritted teeth - you've done the best for your girl (in my view).

One little thing that might help is to give her a reward sticker everytime she manages to pull herslef together - big hug when she comes over, with cuddles and stickers for solving her own problem.

Try Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn. Very different (science-backed) approach instead of rewards/punishments.

www.amazon.co.uk/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486

I was going to suggest Alfie Kohn too, and How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk is another good book.

My son is a similar age and had a brief phase of getting incredibly overwrought about little things. I pretty much did what mamamaya suggests and it worked for us. I can empathise with him, it is hard when we lose our temper - he would get so agitated I could tell he was actually finding it very hard to calm down. I didn't tolerate any unacceptable behaviour (throwing things etc) but I did say "I understand you're very angry and you're finding it hard to calm down but you need to calm down now". I gave him space to do so (not time out, just a suggestion that he go to his room and try to calm down), I didn't back down and give in to whatever demand he was angry about in the first place and when he had calmed down we had a cuddle and talked about strategies for not getting so upset in the first place.
I understand what rosemary is saying too because I also made it clear to him that he had a choice about how he responds to things and that his behaviour was his own responsibility. He needed loving support to understand this though, I don't think the two approaches are mutually exclusive tbh.

Oh and just in case I sound like I think I am supermother number one, I am not always as consistent as I want to be, sometimes I am in a better place to cope with bad behaviour than other times but if I respond inappropriately to him I do make a point of apologising for my own poor behaviour!

Par2 - I'm not advocating leaving a child alone (as in a room on their own, out on the naughty stair etc) I am advocating non-intervention.

A childs tears are not the same as an adults, an adult who is working through how to respond to a situation frequently requires time to be alone to decide their own response before talking to others, good friends are skilled at knowing when to approach and when to leave well alone.

I think your daughter sounds very bright if perhaps misdirecting that natural intelligence and sense of humour at the moment. I'm sure it's not funny for you but the yoghurt trick is pretty impressive (and funny- sorry!)whilst obviously infuriating for you!

unconditional parenting is a great book. Rewards such as sticker charts don't work in the long run because they destroy intrinsic motivation. IE a child will grow into an adult doing things for rewards rather than for their own reasons. So they will be always looking for what they can get out of something rather than doing things for the sake of it.
I know this from bitter experience. My parents gave me sweets for tidying my room every week. i did it to get the sweets but now I don't get them anymore! I am still battling with my chronic untidyness to this day! Children need to learn about the intrinsic pleasure of behaving well in order to -cooperate with others and having good loving relationships.
If you just reward them they will grow up to be selfish human beings who just do things to see what they can 'get' out of it.

When reading Khon's book please note the disturing lack of cited research to back-up any of his claims.

My parents yelled at me to tidy up. And called me lazy. I still have a problem with tidyness. There has to be a better way.

Hmm. I'm all for helping children deal with their emotions, but I'm not sure a child being naughty and unpleasant to others is in need of that help, tbh. I understand that more as in not punishing tantrums etc as it is hard for young children to control themselves in that respect.

But winding up younger sister does not belong in that category. Whining for more treats either. Not listening to the parents and doing as she pleases...

Discipline is what you need couples with some one to one time with her. She had you for herself for a couple of years and now she has no alone time with you. Ask DH to deal with the younger one some evenings/Sundays and go do something fun with the 4yo.

And then introduce proper sanctions for bad behaviour, not just telling her off or ignoring her (that's fine for a tantrum, not for being mean to her sister). She sounds like she needs more attention from you but also like she's spoiled, tbh.

Maybe your pad's untidy because the intrinsic joy of a sparkly home is just not that well - joyous. Housework is pretty mind-numbing stuff. Don't blame your folks for the sweets unconditionally loving your clutter may have been a bridge too far for em.

the yoghurt trick would be hilarious if i saw it on youve been framed, just not at my table
reward charts dont work for her apart from short term ones when potty training etc.
i will give it a try, next time she starts crying i will just support her rather than getting cross and see how she reacts.