dd 4.10 ruining weekends/days out/hols with behaviour.

[familyfun]

how do you punish/prevent bad behaviour without punishing whole family.

dd is annoying for the want of a better word, she purposefully winds people up for a reaction.

she calls her sister over, then snatches her toy or pushes her away. she hides her teddys high up. she chases her knowing she will crash and hurt herself.

she climbs on the back of the settee, stands on sisters potty, blocks doorframe so sister cant get passed.

i tell her not to do things and explain why. she agrees and carries on doing the same things over and over.

at dinner she calls her sister and then taps her own head so sister taps her head while holding yoghurt and gets covered.

i am fed up of saying dd1 stop this stop that. outside we have no fun as dd1 wont stop doing things she knows are wrong.

worst time is weekends/day trips, i can only presume she gets overexcited, but when i say come and get your hair done she runs off and hides under the table and then she wont get dressed and then she wont put her shoes on so by the time we go out we have all shouted at her or dp has picked her up and moved her to where he wants her to put her shoes on and dd1 is crying and she screams and screams like a tantrumming toddler. dd2 cries and backs away from her. if we say ok we wont go out then we all suffer.

we have tried ignoring this as we dont want to nag and shout, if you ignore dd tapping the tabel she will sit there indefinitely doing it just for the reaction. reward chards dont work as she knows what she should do and doesnt do it on purpose for attention.

at school she is good, people always comment on how sensible she is and grown up and well bahved and generally when out she is (apart from asking for everything in shope) its just in the house for us and sometimes her grandparents that she is like this.

dd has time at the park, swimming as a family most weeks, reading time to us and we read to her, we play games, i help with homework, so gets attention.

where are we going wrong?

yes winny she acts like a spoiled brat halp the time, an angel the other half.

Your description of your dd's behaviour implies to me that this is ongoing, not a phase and her behaviour seems beyond what you'd expect for a child of her age. The behaviour you describe sounds very much like here the behaviour children with oppositional defiant disorder exhibit. Obviously I'm not suggesting that your dd has a disorder but it might be worth reading about the parenting techniques suggested for it.

she had me to herself for 3 years and im a sahm so we did lots together, i suppose that all changed with nursery and dd2 and its hard to get back.

puffberto, that describes dd to a tee, she argues and reasons like an adult and is defiant for the sake of it.
she complies to the letter at school and homework is always done perfectly.

I am reading this thread with interest as OP could be describing my DD1 (5). Every single thing OP has listed, my DD1 does a variant of (although she has yet to catch onto the yoghurt trick!).

I have a 13 month old DD2 and have been wondering if the route of all of it is down to the arrival of her little sister.

Hang on - at breakfast she got upset, managed to pull herself together without massive hugs and an adult doing it for her and next time she gets upset she is going to be held and listend to ? Based on an inter-net forum conversation and a book that is an impractial money-spinner that you've not yet read.
Bit confusing for her.

Have just read puffberto's post and am now really worried - that describes my DD exactly too. She is as good as gold at school and for anyone she doesn't know.

clara, she has a host of tricks like that, pretending to sit on balloon so dd2 sits on it and it bursts. running through door and shutting it so dd2 gets a face full of door. telling dd2 to clap while holding stuff so she gets covered.
its like an older child trying to get a younger one in trouble.

yet if dd2 cries dd1 is straight over loving her better fetching her a toy and dd2 wakes and shouts for dd1 not us and adores her.

they also spend lots of time cuddling kissing on floor.

i think dd1 hates being told what to do, things like telling her to get dressed/hurry for school/brush her hair make her be defiant, but ive tried putting clothes out and leaving ehr to it, she sits and plays and doesnt get dressed.

i had a very strict upbringing leading to me being painfully shy and i dont want to do the same to dds.

RosemaryandThyme - are you sure you have Kohn's book in mind when you mention 'disturbing lack of research'? There are copious footnotes and references in the appendices citing all the research studies. Also "book that is an impractical money-spinner" isn't really true, if you have a library you don't have to buy it, and you certainly don't have to fork out for reward charts and stickers ad nauseaum... can't help but think you may have your wires crossed.

tough love?

Less of the "mummy does not like it when you that, as it is not nice really, is it now?" and more: "Put that back now! (firm voice, not shouting) No? Right no tv/pudding for you and you go to your room") Put child in room and leave them to cry it out, do not allow back down until apologised.

4 year old need firm boundaries. and lots of love. But that is not mutually exclusive.

Fwiw, it sounds to me like sibling rivalry may be at the bottom of it. Siblings Without Rivalry (How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too is by the same people who did How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and worth a read.

My DD hates being told what to do as well. But I have to get her and her sister ready for school/nursery in the mornings and only have a limited amount of time so I have to keep asking/reminding her about getting dressed, sitting to have her hair brushed, putting her shoes on etc. And the more I tell her, the more wound up she gets and the less likely she is to actually do it.

She could actually be about to do something but me telling her to do it would be enough to stop her completely. It almost inevitably ends up with us shouting at each other.

DD1 also really loves DD2 and is constantly kissing and hugging her - sometimes to the point that DD2 gets annoyed and tries to escape but can't and starts crying.

I'm really concerned about that 'oppositional defiant disorder' information posted earlier but know how easy it is to read a list of symptoms and self diagnose something like that and start to panic...

I see you don't like strict.

If you look at teachers and adults kids adore, it is often the "strict but fair" ones.

All the local kids love the judo teacher, he is no-nonsense, very strict (10 push ups if you mess about), but also gives praise where due. They don't mind doing the push ups and to say sorry, as they know after that the incident is "closed" and doesn't go on and on. Kids think it's fair, and it is a relief to have a (small) punishment after which everything is forgiven and forgotten.

Strict does not have to be negative.

we have rules but i dont want to be shouting/nagging all the time, i want her to respect us and the house but she doesnt.

Good point - might have my wires crossed - I was remembering the TV programme that showed various methods of parenting based on books - was a while back but I thought the unconditional parenting mum was the one who couldn't put her baby down, had to hike it around on her bossum or back at all times and at one point was taking hot food out of the oven with the babe literally stuck inside the frount of her dungarees, thought that was based on a book by a childless fella - thought the whole thing was utterly bonkers.

there are studies though that show why rewards are not a good idea even if not in kohns book

in one a psychologist walked through a housing estate, and some kids were laughing at him. So he said okay I'll give you a dollar to laugh at me and pull faces, so they did. He past by each day gradually reducing the amount of reward, and by the last day he gave them nothing. They stopped laughing at him, and just ignored him. Once the reward was gone the behaviour stopped.

Rosemary - frontal lobe development and self-control to be encouraged at age 3? Could ou expand on that a bit?
I very much doubt your suggestion that when people are supported in their emotions, they will develop into emotionallky dependent adults. THere is copious research into the links between securely attached children (i.e. who are emotionally close to their parents) and independence. Both Unconditional and Aware parenting books are supported by (perhaps different, but nevertheless) strong scientific evidence. So, forgive me, I have to agree with the posts that counter your rather strange arguments. I really do wonder how can a child learn to be emotionally intelligent when left on her own during the upsets.

Also, why is this one incidence where others carried on eating and she joined in any more of a proof that a particular approach is working than one post and a book that is dubious in the opinion of one poster?

I do hope familyfun you can support her when she is upset - it wil take more than one effort however.

I have pushed my 5 year old into independence from early on. He has remained a clingy boy until I started listening and empathising, now, he is slowly becoming keen to cope with his own upsets. My 2 year old has been empathised with from very early age, he is a remarkably independent child who self-soothes himself through most upsets. If not, then my active support helps him self soothe the next time. If your thesis were true, they should be the other way around.

Arrrrgh - have just looked on Amazon and yup - unconditional parenting (kohn) is different to attchment parenting which is what I'd been thinking of.

Silly question but if parents are not rewarding/punish what are they doing ?
Might just be being even more dim here.

Sorry, but you're a parent. Nagging/shouting goes with the territory with many children! They go through different phases at different ages. They get accustomed to one boundary, develop a bit, push at the boundary, and see where the new line is. It's called growing up!!!

If DS1 does mean things to DS2, he gets an immediate telling off, needs to apologise to DS2, and then they can get back to playing. If it continues, or if it's something REALLY mean, then he goes to time out immediately.

If he throws a strop at being told off, he is sent to time out immediately. I won't tolerate strops and tantrums. That doesn't mean I don't get them, it just means that I don't get them as frequently. If he throws a tantrum about time out, then he just sits there screaming and when he finally stops time out will begin. You might think that's harsh, but once I started that rule his tantrums have reduced in time and frequency.

Sometimes when the time is up on a time out I tell DS1 it is finished and he asks to sit there by himself for longer. Sometimes he is still in a bad mood, and it is a 'I don't want to be with you anyway' type of response which is fine, because he can have some time on his own to get out of the bad mood. Other times it is a quiet but pleasant 'I'd like to sit here for a bit longer mummy' - as he has realised that a bit of time on his own is exactly what he wants and needs!

You say you want her to respect you. But.... do you respect her? I mean, really and truly? It doesn't sound as though she gets any time to herself, gets to play with any of her toys on her own, and definitely doesn't get any of your attention unless you are telling her off. All this acting up gets her masses of negative attention. Do you really want to encourage that? Even if your DH is only there for 1 day a week, you can still take 1/2 hour out of the Sunday just to spend it with her. What she is really crying out for is your attention, and you need to decide how you are going to give it to her.

familyfun - respect will come with time as you show you as an adult can respect her emotions. Rosemary - and that is your reason for rejecting the book? I have to say I did not find the unconditional parenting book very helpful in practice, but maybe it just did not speak to me in the terms that I could apply that well. The point of unconditional love - i.e parents loving their children through their upsets as well as good days, rather than only showing their love when the child has performed right - is one I completely agree with. What is the evidence that the opposite would generate great results?

Sure Maya try ;

Self control and the developing brain - www.stanford.edu

How to develop self control in children - www.my-self-development.com

I reject any book that readers inturpret as requiring them to risk burning a baby by hanging it in-frount of an open oven door rather than using their own (free) common sense and puting the baby down. Like I say I believe this money-spinning fad to be called attachment parenting.

Will see if the programme is on iplayer and attach a link.

Rosemary - they set the limits and accept child's emotions. Children will respond in an upset way to limits (wouldn't you?), but as I have learned over the period that I have learned to listen and empathise, it is much easier for them to accept limits if these are set lovingly and their protests are accepted (by sitting with them, cuddled if they let you). Pent-up emotions produce stress, tears let the stress out. When left alone, it is not a "good cry" but simply further stress. Also, children learn to supress their expression of emotion. DO you have evidence that this is a good thing?
Also, I wonder if you were sent to time outs yourself as a child and if so, do you remember what you thought then? Was it not mostly thinking how unfairky you have been treated rather than how you will become a better person?

BTW, attachment parenting has very strong scientific evidence -- which does not mean writing every book has to have scientific evidence in it (most parents want advice, not scientific evidence so the majority of parenting books are about that rather than a presentation of data. Sears is a pediatrician and in his other research you can see what the evidence is that he has based his attachment parenting on. Or perhaps you listened to the View and an interview with him there? Not a very good source, I fear.

Rosemary do you seriously think this example is a testimony to the whole attachment parenting approach? I doubt very much any AP parent would think they have to wear the baby in every situation all the time! And if there are some mums who are so stupid as to do this, do ou think they are stupid because of what they read? I'd guess any approach has people on board who are very silly. I have seen books that have disclaimers in the front to prevent such stupid parents from trying to sue the authors...! FGS....