dd 4.10 ruining weekends/days out/hols with behaviour.

[familyfun]

how do you punish/prevent bad behaviour without punishing whole family.

dd is annoying for the want of a better word, she purposefully winds people up for a reaction.

she calls her sister over, then snatches her toy or pushes her away. she hides her teddys high up. she chases her knowing she will crash and hurt herself.

she climbs on the back of the settee, stands on sisters potty, blocks doorframe so sister cant get passed.

i tell her not to do things and explain why. she agrees and carries on doing the same things over and over.

at dinner she calls her sister and then taps her own head so sister taps her head while holding yoghurt and gets covered.

i am fed up of saying dd1 stop this stop that. outside we have no fun as dd1 wont stop doing things she knows are wrong.

worst time is weekends/day trips, i can only presume she gets overexcited, but when i say come and get your hair done she runs off and hides under the table and then she wont get dressed and then she wont put her shoes on so by the time we go out we have all shouted at her or dp has picked her up and moved her to where he wants her to put her shoes on and dd1 is crying and she screams and screams like a tantrumming toddler. dd2 cries and backs away from her. if we say ok we wont go out then we all suffer.

we have tried ignoring this as we dont want to nag and shout, if you ignore dd tapping the tabel she will sit there indefinitely doing it just for the reaction. reward chards dont work as she knows what she should do and doesnt do it on purpose for attention.

at school she is good, people always comment on how sensible she is and grown up and well bahved and generally when out she is (apart from asking for everything in shope) its just in the house for us and sometimes her grandparents that she is like this.

dd has time at the park, swimming as a family most weeks, reading time to us and we read to her, we play games, i help with homework, so gets attention.

where are we going wrong?

rosemary -- you asked in an earlier post how you avoid getting upset by all the crying and whinging== you might find that once you try it, your perspective on the crying changes. For me I no longer see crying as something negative, I see it as a positive healing process my child is going through. Sometimes it is a bit loud! But overall I actually feel a sense of well being because i know what I'm doing is the best for my child. And when a child cries while being comforted they become less tense and frustrated and more relaxed so I generally find that I feel more relaxed after a big cry too! Though it can be a little draining sometimes.

Whining hurts my ears, therefore my children may not whine in the same room as anyone else. They may whine, but if you whine in this house, you whine alone.

Rosemary, if you read my earlier post I went through the process that happens when DD hits DS with a brick. I talk it through with her. She usually volunteers to apologise to DS and offers him a hug after we've discussed it, and that's not something I instigate or suggest. It works for us.

Referring back to notes from book again: ?One researcher, noting that young children typically misbehave after being told to stop, observes that parents conclude that talking doesn?t work? ? but that parents don?t assume spanking doesn?t work in same situation. In study (cited p118) half toddlers misbehaved again within two hours, 4/5 within the day, regardless of discipline. Which is interesting.

Adventures With Voles: the quote is "It is not possible to act with children so they always feel unconditionally loved ? but the objective should be to come close"- I may have paraphrased slightly but it's in Chapter 7, or early Chapter 8 I think. (I've loaned out the book at the moment so just going off my notes. It follows on somewhere after the detailed explanation of the 13 guiding principles.)

paranoid, I completely agree, this approach not only helps to cope with the daily upsets but helps to preserve the sanity of parents. Only a few months ago, I spent my days running against the brick wall, trying all sorts of methods on the way towards it....and if a method - a punishment or a reward or a trick - worked once, it was unlikely to work again. Now things improve, bit by bit, daily. I do not feel I need to look back. Well, i do -- to wonder how on earth did I cope before with all this constant stress and confrontations with my DCs! And why on earth could I not have found this earlier.
BTW, I like your posts too - was too busy arguing my case before and failed to return the compliment :) Glad to see it works for you as well, and I am happy to read some more people might be won over. After having had an evening full of activities and a few upsets which did not lead to confrontations but to learning and connecting (sounds woolly, I know, but am too tired to find a better way to word this), I just wish more parents could benefit from it.

yes colditz, in our house they stopped whining as I kept repeating that I could not understand anything they said in that weird voice, please speak normally or go and whine/cry in your room, then come back and tell me in a NORMAL voice what is the matter.

I really dislike whining.

it did work btw

Chandon why would you send a crying child to their room? I wonder what they learn from it? My guess is they learn to supress their feelings and to show us their nicer face. Which is to some degree what children learn anyway as they grow and as they see us setting a good example in how to present our emotions to others. But if you do not want to listen to their upsets now, and then they do not come to you with their problems 6, 8, 10 years down the line, would be disappointed?
I disliked whining, and told my DS to speak with normal voice. He learned to swallow his feelings and as a result, all the stress that he acquires tended to just accumulate and lead to other kinds of disagreeable behaviour. The question is why we so dislike whining/crying? Is it the sound of it, is it that we feel they are demanding? Is it that we feel we can not solve their (often silly) problems and they should stop asking? I was helped in changing my attitude when I realised I am not really expected to mend that broken cookie. I am expected to accept their feelings and disappointments and help them sort through their emotions, in my presence. If I send them to their room when they are upset and whiney, I am not helping them in that, and they are too young to be able to adequately understand and deal with their emotions.

Mayamama, I know, I saw your posts and thought oh good, there's someone else on mumsnet trying to spread the word, I feel a bit evangelical about it. If only more people knew how to help children heal through tears, and how that and play and 'connecting' is the simple answer to EVERY parenting problem, it's simply amazing!

I am finding that sometimes my DD cries a lot, other days, we have been busy and so need to work on 'connecting' like you say, laughter and play to make her feel comfortable to release her emotions again, it's like a cycle. How old are your DC?

They learn to have a good old cry, they learn to calm down by themselves, and if it is pretend crying, they learn that crying does not mean they get their way.

If the children cry because they are upset over something like grandfather being sick, or a bust up with a friend, they cry it out WITH me. Even when Darth Vader died in Starwars, DS1 cried with me, not in his room. I don't punish them for having feelings, obviously!

If it is about not being allowed another ice cream, or me not buying an X box, or about not wanting to go to bed, or about getting their way, they can go and cry in their room. I have no time for that.

Hi Chandron,

I think I tried to explain earlier about what is called 'the broken cookie phenomenon' children cry about something trivial such as wanting another ice cream but this is not the real reason for the crying, it's just a trigger they need when they are feeling a bit tired, sad or emotionallly unbalanced to start crying. They are crying about something that they are not for whatever reason able to express to you in words, so you may not know what they are really crying about. If you ignore the child then they will simply seek ways to release their emotions over and over again, often appearing like a 'spoilt brat'!! But they are not, they are just looking for a way to get into the crying.
The crying is not 'false' tears, just because it appears to be about something stupid because it's not really about that thing. i know we were all brought up with the idea that we ignore behaviour that we don't want to see again, but it doesn't work, because the child never gets the emotional support they need.

just read all replies, thanks.
the poster who said i dont respect my dd and spend no time with her, what an awful suggestion, you have no idea how much i love and care for my kids.

i am trying to be firm whilst loving, this morning when dd was bouncing on the bed i told her she needed to get dresses, she carries on jumping so lifted her down, led her to her room and told her to get dressed which she did, no crying. we are always affectionate so that is nothing new, plenty of kisses and cuddles.
i have offered to take dd1 to a class, like dance or swimming but she isnt ready yet, too shy.
i think she is jealous that i take dd2 swimming weekly and to playgroups (same as i used to take her to) so im trying to find something i can take her to, but there is only an hour after dinner till bathtime so not much time.
i always read to her but she wants me to play games with just her after school but in reality i need to get dinner and watch dd2 who is a climber.

i am trying hard not to shout, just say things firmly and if she doesnt respond move her away from whatever she is breaking.

i have a great relationship with my mom who was firm but always helped me and put me first which id like to have with dd1.
i dont want to shout.

if dd1 is mean to dd2 im trying to give her a warning and then ask her to be a good big sister and show dd2 something, she loves reading to her and dd2 loves sitting on her lap listening.

im also keeping dd2 off dd1 stuff so she gets some privacy/keeps her toys nice without dd2 wrecking things.

MightyMojo: I hate that sort of message. You must always try but you'll never be good enough. It breeds instant insecurity. To be fair, I'm not sure if UP followers have more angst than most other parents, though.

Chandon, well, they are not crying because they WANT an xbox. They cry because they do NOT GET the xbox. And then the tears are understandable: would you not feel upset that there is some greater power that prevents you doing or acquiring something or demand you do something else?
Of course, if parents are unable to set the limits and convey the message that whining gets them something that was originally said no to for a good reason, it will be rather confusing and will also increase that 'spoiled brat' behaviour. But once you have been able to explain to them the reasons and set the limit, their protest should not be ignored or punished. Why should it be?

Also there is no reason to set such limits harshly (your children are unlikely to fully grasp such concepts as family budget and what it should be spent on as opposed to what it could be spent on, or environmental reasons for not wanting to buy something etc.). If you do it harshly, it is far more lkely to end up a power struggle and you and them will be really worked up and set against each other. If you do it lovingly, and with sincere explanation, you can also help them overcome the obvious upset they then experience because something they wanted will not materialise.

BTW; I naively thought no parent does that anymore nowadays, but I recently overheard a father telling his 8-9 year old son not to play in the bushes "'cause I say so!". I am guessing people who write here are more capable than that in recognising their children as human beings.

paranoid, yes, it does feel sometimes a bit evangelical :D -- but I am an average parent who constantly struggled with the most typical problems which are described here every day many times over, used punishments and rewards. It is awful to think finally you have found a solution or trick that works and then find yourself failing again at the next move. Now I no longer struggle - which is sometimes so hard to believe, and at the same time wonderful.

Mine are both boys, a few months over 5 and just turning 2. Yours?

i completely agree that when dd cries over silly things like not eating on the sofa, its like she was looking for a reason to cry, just wish i knew why??

how would you dfeal with misbehaviour like climbing up the towel rail then, i have explained its dangerous, she thinks its fun??

family fun -- if you listen to her while she's crying, offer love support, she might says things, before, after or during, that may give you a glimpse as to what she is upset about. it could be a mixture of things though, all in a big blur in her mind - which is why she can't tell you about it, and needs to cry to clear her head a bit. But it does take time, and she might not say anything at all.

Think of it as baggage, -- all adults have it from our experiences. And children are naturally inclined to cry to deal with all this baggage, while adults often try to stop them from doing this in various ways ! If we can deal with the crying with love (no matter what they are crying about) then they won't have excess baggage as adults.

Towell rail = zero tolerance. Out of the bath, scolding & put it both behind you. (Except be watchful next time she's in the bath/near the rail)

Sofa: ask her what's wrong (she won't know). But invite her to talk about her life & eventually whatever is actually bothering her will bubble to the surface.

think about when you've ever burst into tears over "nothing", what did you need people to do for you then?

How to talk so that kids will listen book might be good, it's all this kind of stuff.

familyfun - as I and another poster have said, it's SIBLING RIVALRY that is most likely at the root of the problem. Do check out the "Siblings without rivalry" book. Deal with that problem, you'll probably find the behaviour starts to resolve itself.

Re the towel rail, remove her from the danger, physically if necessary - if you've explained its dangerous and she knows that, there's no point repeating it, just remove her without fuss, but be warned she'll probably find something else also undesirable to do. But if you deal with the underlying issue, you won't keep transferring the behaviour onto something else.

Adventureswithvoles - that's one way to look at it, another way is to view perfection as unachievable, so therefore don't beat yourself up about falling short and just accept the job you're doing is 'good enough'.

will check it out mighty, thanks

Mine are a bit older now, 6 and 9. the 9 year old had temper tantrums as a baby and small child and seems to have grown out of it. He had bad colic as a baby, and has been very sick as a tot (hospital a few times) and I recognised at an early age that most infuriating thing for him was to have no control. He is very independent minded anyway, I have always had loads of patience and love but sometimes I'd just "run out" and needed time out from the crying. He is a very calm sensitive boy now who can articulate very well what bothers him (that's the age! 9 is a great age), we have lots of quiet chats now rather than outbursts.

To be fair, I am not sure our parenting styles are that different. I do send them to their room, but not "harshly". It is like time-out, and we talk about things when they are calm again 9the 6 year old can still get a bit overwrought about random things).

I did try sitting with my oldest who had serious crying rages, but I found it prolonged and aggravated it. The best thing to do was to give him space and time to cool off, then we'd always have a talk and a big hug.

I had no preconceived ideas about parenting styles before I had kids. I have very much had to figure it out based on what works for their and my characters. They talk to me about anything (including fears, death, sex, friendships, being rich/poor) but they know that whinging and whining is not a language I speak.

One of the big things I learned is that a lot of this angst can be prevented by making sure they sleep enough, eat well, and have a good balance between active time and down time. I wonder if OP has "found" this balance?

I do wish I had known what i know now when they were little! So much to learn as a parent, and I find the points made about crying (and the underlying causes) by maya and paranoid and others here very insightful.

dd eats good portions of meals each day, sometimes too many treats off gps which we are trying to restrict, she walks to school and back, plays outside at school a lot, we walk to park after school a few times a week when dry and she plays an hour, we swim/park/soft play at weekends so she is active, she doesnt sleep enough imo and never has, she is in asleep by 7.30 after bath and stories but often wakes at 5.30 and gets grumpy by 5pm.

dd1 has said in the past that dd2 gets me al day so she wants me after school 3.30 till bed 7.30 but that isnt do able obviously so we need a balance where she gets a bit of time with just me each night but they go to bed at same time so its hard.

UP is so critical, though, MightyMojo, > half of the UP book is making (or trying to make, not that it convinced me at all, but that's another matter!) a compelling case about how wrong & damaging conditional parenting is. So the onus to avoid any CP is very very heavy.

my mom comes twice a week usually and fetches dd1 from school but tends to tehn play with dd1 and leaves me with dd2 and cooking, i could ask that she takes dd2 outside for a bit so i get dd1 on her own but dd1 monopolises her nan (for the one-to-one attention) and would probably get jealous.
its a good idea, im going to ask my mom but she has never babysat for me yet, she has agreed to babysit them both next week for an evening so maybe she could help with dd2 more.
also in the hols my mom has dd1 for an afternoon so again im left with dd2, maybe now mom is more confident with dd2 she could take dd2 instead and i could swim with dd1.
i would love some time with her as we used to be always together ans i miss it too.