Sleep problems 9 MO - Dont want to cry it out but health visitor says do it :(

[Rootatoot]

This might be a long one so apologies in advance.

My 9mo DS wakes frequently at night. He is bf and definately seems to have developed a sleep association with being fed as he has always fallen asleep at the breast. He CAN fall asleep without it and during the day will nap when in the pushchair or car seat. I realise I need to break this association and have been trying the Elizabeth Pantley approach of pulling him off breast before he is fully asleep and then putting him in his cot. This worked beautifully a couple of times but doesn't always. Often he is asleep before I realise or he cries and roots to re-latch so I put him back on (as she recommends) before trying again but then he does fall asleep.

He will fall asleep after bedtime routine at 7.30pm on the dot. The problems start at keeping him there. Last night was particularly bad. He woke after 45 mins (usually its more like an hour to two hours) and I had to rock him back to sleep. Then 20 mins later same again. This went on and on until midnight or so when I gave in out of falling asleep myself and he fell asleep next to me after a feed.

He has been co-sleeping at some point in the night I think for the last 6 weeks or so. Didn't set out to co-sleep. Just done out of desperation.

I KNOW that I have to stop doing this or the problem won't get solved but I really don't like the 'cry it out' idea. It just seems cruel.

On the other hand the Elizabeth Pantley no-cry book seems very long winded and not sure if it would work as I've tried PHASE 1 of her putting baby into own cot bit and he just screams every time he hits the mattress.

The HV came for 9 month check today and I was quite suprised that the 'official' advice is very pushily cry it out. She said she'd ring in 2 weeks to see how I've got on! Don't get me wrong, the HV is lovely but they are very rigid in their advice I think.

So I guess I'm asking for opinions. Is cry it out the only way or is it cruel? I am not sure I can do that. He is still in our room so want to move him to own room but not sure whether to do gradual methods like no-cry solution or whether just to ride out a 'week of hell' and do it all at once.

On top of this he is teething and that is definately a factor.

I feel very tired and very confused about what to do for the best.

Bahhhhh. I was told to leave ds2 to 'cry it out'. "Bugger off" said I, "I hate the sound of squealing!"

So I put him in my bed until he was about 14 months old and not suffering separation anxiety any more, then wanged him in with his brother.

Tell your HV to bugger off. I had similar advice for my 13 month old from a health visitor a couple of weeks ago. I was very proud of myself for standing up to her. How would crying it out in the middle of the night help you get more sleep? - you're hardly going to sleep through listening to crying.
Though 9 months (around Christmas in our case) was really hard going but things are much better now (not perfect by any means). I think there are big delelopmental changes going on - his brain is probably too busy working out how to crawl to want to sleep. Our latest bad patch was when she went from 2 steps to proper walking within a week!

I was reading this last night: [http://www.isisonline.org.uk/ Infant sleep studies] which suggests crying techniques don't result in permanent solutions and high stress for babies who give up rather than go to sleep :(

Having been there recently you have my sympathy. I just kept feeding - it was the easiest way.

Just posting as have to go pick up dd but want to come back later and see if I can give you any advice as we had sleep issues!

Hi rootatoot. Loads of sympathy, I know how you feel! My 13 mo DD still doesn't sleep through and wakes every 3 hourss for milk, the longest she has ever slept was 6 hours and that was once. CC/CIO isn't for me but i'm getting pretty close to the end of my tether. Tbh I don't see anyone knows if its cruel/has a long lasting effect because how can you compare children? Its up to you as a mother to decide how you feel about it.

Teething will definatly be a factor - calpol him up.

You could always make a start with NCSS - you can always abandon it for a quicker option? There is a thread in sleep which seems to have worked for lots of posters. Its a bit long for my tired eyes but it is a method of gradual withdrawal - a compromise between crying and no cry solutions.

He seems to associate his cot with bad things. Have you let him play in it during the day, made a fuss about how nice it is etc?

What is his routine like? Make sure he gets 2 decent naps in a day as this helps them sleep at night.

Or have you tried settling him on your bed? Or on a mattress on the floor? At 9mo I would lie next to DD, cuddling but not feeding and this would send her to sleep. Then I started patting her bottom whilst she lay on her side or front. Set the monitor on high and go to him if he wakes.

My DD never minded her cot and I always try to make her self settle - you have to give them a chance! If she cries I go to her and then try to leave again. If I can't leave I pat her bum.

Do you have a partner? If you can have help for some of the night wakings or even some time off during the day, that can work wonders for a tired body and mind.

My HV kept an eye on me for a while, they are just checking for PND. Just say he is sleeping better when she calls, or just say sleep isn't an issue for me, I am coping fine. She will leave you alone then I promise.

Things are not perfect for us by any means but we have made progress since 9mo. Our next step is night weaning, this is not going well.

You are under no obligation to follow your HV's 'advice' - it is just that, 'advice', it is not an instruction you must follow. If it doesn't feel right to you then, quite simply, don't do it. No reason to fall out with the HV about it either.

If however you want to find a way of getting your baby to sleep longer than this is one way of doing it. It's not one that I would do, but it is one way and it suits some people. Controlled crying is another technique (lots of people on here hate it but I would say it is much fairer than CIO). And of course, co-sleeping and just waiting for your baby to get bigger and better at sleeping for longer in her own time is another perfectly valid approach.

The Infant Sleep Studies stuff is really interesting. However, I'd be wary of reading too much into it. I think many of us adults were left to cry at some point (I certainly was) and didn't feel negative effects as a result (or maybe that's why I'm such a stress bunny.... !). And plenty of people say that it works very well for them and their families. But of course it is not right for everyone.

Not very helpful I know, but I just wanted to make the point that HVs are there to give 'advice' which they will do based on their experience. You do not get a black mark if you ignore the advice or a gold star if you do. We are all different, as are our babies, and different things suit us.

p.s. I meant to say 'good luck' and I do feel for you. I'm at the same stage with DC2 and it is exhausting.

My DD wouldn't sleep , and wanted to breast feed back to sleep . I tried the cry it out method , she cried until she was sick .( that worked well , had hysterical baby , soaked in sick sheets , cot and carpet ) was advised to put newspaper on the floor to make it easier to clean up .
So obviously I ignored that cruel and stupid advice and she slept in with us until she was about 2 .
She's now 14 and quite normal .
Don't do it if you don't want to , one day the start sleeping through , and everything will be fine .

You definitely don't have to do cio, but it might be worth trying to leave a little bit. I had a similar situation with my dd and I couldn't bear her screaming, but that meant I was pouncing on her as soon as she cried. So I used a timer and forced myself to wait two mins before going in. And it worked, very quickly. Honestly, I couldn't believe it, but two nights later she was sleeping all night.

Sorry if that sounds patronising and obvious, you may very well have tried similar already, but I needed the obvious pointing out to me!

Me - I take the easy option. What you both need is sleep right? So co-sleep, both of you in bed together, naps too if you want. Boobs out for easy access and then just enjoy your sleep!

Mine were both like this - the Pantley method does work if you stick at it. Tell your HV to bog off - don't worry they are quite used to being told where to go.

It gets better.

I KNOW that I have to stop doing this or the problem won't get solved

Actually, it will get solved. Just keep feeding your baby, cosleeping is an ideal way for you all to get more sleep.

When you are rested and feeling up to it again (which will happen quickly if you cosleep or sidecar the cot next to the bed) then you can try offering water at night instead of breastmilk. Around 10-11 months was when my DD stopped feeding at night.

I certainly wouldn't contemplate stopping night feeds and moving baby to their own room whilst their teething - babies need cuddles at night too.

Your HV is giving rubbish advice, you absolutely don't need to listen to her. Listen to your mothering instincts and listen to your baby. You two are the experts on what you need to do to get through this, not some stranger.

My ds didn't do sleeping through the night consistently until he was a year. And then I was on my knees with work and another child so I was desperate.

However there is a difference in the "I am mucking around with tears because I prefer to be with you" and the "I really can't do with out you" tears.

So we put him in his own room, and my dh started to go to him in the night as he didn't have boobs! (And ds wasn't actually hungry ) after a while he kind of got the message that it was nicer to sleep through the night. But it was gradual and sometimes we did let him cry a bit once we had checked on him several times. But we never left him to "cry it out" as such. The gradual getting me out of the way and comfort boobing started to slow down and he has learnt to stay asleep now. I am quite mean though as at 7/8 when they go down for the night I don't really do the rocking/cuddling to sleep, we have a story and a cuddle and put on the music/lights and he quite happily goes to sleep on his own, this too took a couple of days to get into the habit but once we did he self settles very happily.

I know this is probably not much help however we did it gradually baby step by baby step and it worked out for us. And it was relatively gentle rather than brutal and short!

Oh and to get more sleep we also had many evenings/nights of co-sleeping to the point that ds room still isn't a baby boy room yet and dd thought his bedroom was our room! If it works for you why make your life difficult? Just co-sleep everyone is happy then!

Your post sounds very similar to my situation. Dd 9 months, ref'd, we co sleep with her in cot at side bed with side down, teething like crazy...

I'm currently reading the No Cry Sleep solution too and there are some quick wins in there ( most of which I'm already doing) but it's clear her methods only work if implemented over time. The main things I've got out of it include:

• naps at 9 months should be 2-4 hours per day
• associate a sleep pattern with smells and sounds (using same bubble bath, musical box, words like "sleepy time now")
• whilst sleeping with dc in room, do try and wait a minute before seeing to them - I definitely got in the habit of picking dd up immediately after every murmur because shes next to me, when in fact she sometimes settles herself.

In answer to your original question Is cry it out the only way or is it cruel? you seem to know yourself that is isn't pleasant, and you also have worked out that Pantry's methods are worth trying before turning to CIO/CC so personally I would try anything before trying CIO/CC.

I found this a good read and changed my decision to move dd in to her own room last week [http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html]
Whilst at 9 months they're doing so much and are becoming a little independent person, they are still a baby.

I've come to the conclusion that whilst I can cope with the night awakenings, I'm not changing anything. It has meant DP sleeping in the spare room 2 or 3 nights a week, but we're fine with that as it works for us (he gets a full nights sleep and helps on the nights he is in our room).

Dd just grabbed me phone and managed to press send before I'd finished editing!! Lol

Bf'd not ref'd!

drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html link

Watching with interest if there are any other hints or tips for a better nights sleep (again, I'm under no illusion that she'll sleep through anytime soon, but I know my dd could improve! )

All these sleep techniques don't work for every baby. Some of my friends who tried CC or CIO had varying success stories for some it worked in 3 days, for some others it took 7 days and again some others complained that after a month of trying both the baby and the mothers were completely traumatised with no clear results in sights. Your baby's determination and personality will play a great role in that.
I gave up on trying to make DS sleep in cotbed, we co-sleep, he's now 13 months and as I had to go back to work it's the nicest feeling in the world to lay next to him at night. He sleeps well and doesn't need to be BF to fall asleep. We play the same lullaby CD and he falls asleep by the 3rd song. If he wakes up at night I simply put him on me and pat his back and he falls back alseep in minutes. I think he likes the re-assurance of DH and me being there at night.
Tell your HV to bugger off, it's your child, you do what you feel is right. There is no point in trying something if you are not comfortable doing, as your DC will pick up on the feleing and it won't work.

There is some fav advice on here.

I second calpol. Could be teething. My DD doesn't sleep when teething without some.

How is weaning going? I've found eating a meal with protein for tea has helped DD to sleep better (she is 8mo).

Do you give him a dummy? I know some people think they are the work of the devil, but if he wants to comfort suck rather than feed then it might be worth a try.

Btw I couldn't let my DD CIO

If baby is happy with co-sleeping, you're happy with co-sleeping, and you're set up so you can co-sleep safely, then why not co-sleep?

some other ideas

• cot next to the parents' bed

• parent in a sleeping bag on the floor of the nursery next to baby in cot

we've done both of those with some success.

I find that just being in the same room as baby is a big help. Singing, humming, reassurance.

The best thing I did about ds sleep was to stop telling myself I had to sort it out and that I was forming bad habits. Breast feeding helps babies sleep because there are sleep-inducing hormones in the milk, and they feel relaxed and happy. That is not a bad association or a bad habit. I worried and worried until I realised that what was most important to me was ds emotional security and I couldn't see how leaving him to cry would help that. We embraced co-sleeping and I love it - with dd we have done it from the start. I never tell the HV. They will grow up and things will change, you do not have to break 'habits' when they are 9 months old.

sorry, is the HV the baby's mother?

seriously, tell her to fuck off, it's actually none of her business, and if you don't want to do cry-it-out, then don't.

"nod and then do what you want anyway"

he's 9 months old, so still doesn't understand that if he sleeps alone you'll still be there when he wakes up.

you have to do what you think is best to stay sane.

it's highly unlikely that you'll end up co-sleeping for life.

Wow, thank you for all replies and advice.

I think if baby and I could exist in a bubble without worrying about husband, visitors or going anywhere else, we probably could co-sleep for a good while as he isn't really waking up to feed if he's next to me more than once or twice. I think big part of the issue is DH isn't happy and wants baby in own room and he wants to be back in our bed (understandable). He is in spare room so he gets sleep for work. But it would be great to have a bit of time to myself in the evening too. I think for all of us, if he can learn to self -settle it will be a good thing.

I think I definately need to spend more happy time in cot with baby during the day but anyway, can't write more now as must go do dinner. Big thank you for all suggestions. Will post back hopefully tomorrow and see how tonight goes. Lots to think about.

there are a few suggestions here
but it definitely doesn't say you must do cio.

There must surely be a health professional/ health visitor that co sleeps and breastfeeds to sleep?
Its really worrying all these women (myself included) who do this but lie to the HV as it is so contrary to their advice and experience.

Definitely tell HV to stuff herself.

DS was still eating loads at night (bfing) at 9 months, as was DD. If they need it, they need it. When DD was 10 months and DS 11 months they both suddenly started only needing to feed for a minute or two each time - so not eating properly, just a nip to go back to sleep with. It was VERY obvious when it wasn't a proper feed anymore and my milk dropped right off too. At that point DH took over - one feed at a time - and comforted whichever one it was back to sleep. He would offer a bottle of expressed milk (I slept in the spare room for this) and it was always refused. DD took three nights and DS took four and have both slept through ever since.

I just stopped feeding ds1 at night at 10 mos tbh. He fed every 2 hours, 24/7, and it was making me crazy. (he was also enormous)

Dh just went in instead. From a baby that woke every two hours on the dot and screamed blue murder if he didn't get fed immediately, he went to sleeping through in 3 days.