Sleep problems 9 MO - Dont want to cry it out but health visitor says do it :(

[Rootatoot]

This might be a long one so apologies in advance.

My 9mo DS wakes frequently at night. He is bf and definately seems to have developed a sleep association with being fed as he has always fallen asleep at the breast. He CAN fall asleep without it and during the day will nap when in the pushchair or car seat. I realise I need to break this association and have been trying the Elizabeth Pantley approach of pulling him off breast before he is fully asleep and then putting him in his cot. This worked beautifully a couple of times but doesn't always. Often he is asleep before I realise or he cries and roots to re-latch so I put him back on (as she recommends) before trying again but then he does fall asleep.

He will fall asleep after bedtime routine at 7.30pm on the dot. The problems start at keeping him there. Last night was particularly bad. He woke after 45 mins (usually its more like an hour to two hours) and I had to rock him back to sleep. Then 20 mins later same again. This went on and on until midnight or so when I gave in out of falling asleep myself and he fell asleep next to me after a feed.

He has been co-sleeping at some point in the night I think for the last 6 weeks or so. Didn't set out to co-sleep. Just done out of desperation.

I KNOW that I have to stop doing this or the problem won't get solved but I really don't like the 'cry it out' idea. It just seems cruel.

On the other hand the Elizabeth Pantley no-cry book seems very long winded and not sure if it would work as I've tried PHASE 1 of her putting baby into own cot bit and he just screams every time he hits the mattress.

The HV came for 9 month check today and I was quite suprised that the 'official' advice is very pushily cry it out. She said she'd ring in 2 weeks to see how I've got on! Don't get me wrong, the HV is lovely but they are very rigid in their advice I think.

So I guess I'm asking for opinions. Is cry it out the only way or is it cruel? I am not sure I can do that. He is still in our room so want to move him to own room but not sure whether to do gradual methods like no-cry solution or whether just to ride out a 'week of hell' and do it all at once.

On top of this he is teething and that is definately a factor.

I feel very tired and very confused about what to do for the best.

I just thought I would add my tuppence about food before sleep, well my experience.

With dd, I was advised by a friend that to get her to sleep through the night she needed to eat loads. Dd always slept through although she had the occasional night, I used to try and coerce her to eat to no avail (fusspot) and she still slept through.

Ds - could feed him an entire horse. Daily. And he still never slept

They won't always wake up every night and I find the more that they run around during the day the more tired and the better sleep they achieve. In 10 years you will be begging them to get out of bed .

9 months is teeny, really teeny. do whata you feel like and it will fall into place!

Get husband into family bed with you and baby, give baby to husband to cuddle, go to sleep.

Works for me - I'm the husband - I like my baby cuddles.

Try this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/1394888-What-worked-for-us-Hope-this-helps

We were successful with it! Although obviously when teething DS still wakes up a bit more often and sometimes we still co-sleep if he needs the reassurance (it feels like 'giving in' but I'm always surprised that it doesn't actually affect him sleeping in his cot the next night).

Crying it out worked wondefully for my two but they were a bit older than 9 months roughly about 16 months I think and were waking purely out of habit, it took 2 nights with dd and 1 night with ds horrible to do but worked for us!!

CIO/CC (basically the same thing) isn't supposed to be recommended for under-1s anymore because the neuroscience demonstrates that the technique can set up neural pathways that have long term effects. As well as damaging the bond between parents and babies it can set up pathways for stress, anxiety and depression in later life.

My DD was similar at that age. I ended up sleeping in a bed with her, with my husband asleep in a different bed in a different room! This went on for about three months.
Cry it out worked really well for us, but we didn't do it until 13 months. It took two nights of crying for 45min each time. Since then DD (now 2) has fallen asleep every night within minutes of switching the light off, with no crying, and stayed asleep- bar the odd night when she has had a cold.
So don't rule it out- I think that ultimately this approach saved all of us a lot of stress. However, I do think you have to pick your moment. For some babies (mine included) 9 months is not a good time because their separation anxiety is maximal then. Also, if you don't want to do it then it won't work.
Probably I would tolerate it for now if you can, and revisit the issue in a month or so. What does your partner think? Whatever you choose, you both have to be on board.

sorry, I meant controlled crying

I would try gradual retreat if you want to get her sleeping through the night on her own.

How big is your bed? We upgraded to a king size and 2.5 yo dd still comes in with us at some point during the night. We tried Controlled Crying and it broke my heart as I am a big softy. We also had varying spells of night weaning but didn't fully crack it until she went cold turkey at 2.

If you and your DH are happy with you dc in your bed then carry on. If DH isn't happy, try putting dc in their own room and DH going in at night to break the feed to sleep association. You can offer water from a cup if you want to.

In the end you don't have to do what the HV said, you have to find a solution that works for all of your family to enable everyone to get a good nights rest.

Knackered mother...yep, here - not a HV but am a medic. We stopped feeding at night just after Easter (seven months, she just wasn't interested). Still feed to sleep for the evening feed. She starts off the night in her cot, but if she wakes and doesn't settle with shh-ing, tummy rub or cuddle, then she comes into our bed.

Knackered mother Again, not a HV but a paediatric nurse. DD is 12mo and still breastfed to sleep on the days when I am home at bedtime (if I am working late she usually wakes when I get home and is fed back to sleep and I'm not entirely sure how DH manages when I work nightshifts). We never properly co-slept, but often I would fall asleep with her in my arms or be too tired to put her back in her cot after a night feed and just lie her down next to me, and now she occasionally ends up in our bed still if we are desperate and especially if she is ill or teething when she just wants me to sit and feed her all night.

Quick update as I'm typing VIA my phone so it'll end up gobbledegook. After reading all posts ( big thx for all helpful replies) I did some soul searching and some more re-reading of ncss. Felt torn between what dh wants & I felt bit pressured to do but, & big but, had truly dreadful night last night & really accepted things need to change for all of us. Baby def wasn't happy last night. So I have bitten bullet & as I type this baby asleep in cot in his room. So far in bed by 8pm (took while T9 settle) woke 8.45pm which is the usual. Settled again by 9.15 & slept nearly 2hours. Just been in to settle again but only took 10mins. So improvement on last night.

Will post update 2moro.

Separation anxiety def a factor just now, whoever mentioned that by t&e way.

Many thanks.

Ended up bringing baby to bed at 1am. Feel happy that we've made move to own room even if he isn't staying there all night. I had more time to myself yestetday evening at least. Going to try & persist with ncss though not 100% sure which ideas to follow. The phased retreat isn't working in that with night wakings, unless I put him down asleep he screams as soon as I move him towards mattress!

My DS used to scream when I put him in his cot but I would just sit beside the cot singing and stroking an he did eventually calm down. I never felt like I was abandoning him because I was right next to him even if he was screaming. I would never pick him back up one he was in his cot.

I was told for months that I needed to stop feeding DD at night and let her cry it out. In sheer desperation when she was fourteen months and working full time on broken sleep was no longer sustainable, we tried letting her cry but sat beside her. She slept through on night four. It was a hideous three nights watching her cry but I do now wish I hadn't left it so long.

Hi Rootatoot, I feel pretty strongly about this because we were in exactly the same position as you - breastfeeding, co-sleeping - which was lovely for several months until we realised that none of us were getting a decent night's sleep and were going a bit mad. Starting a bedtime routine and encouraging our daughter to sleep in her own bed has been the best thing I've done since becoming a parent.

The phrase 'cry it out' is a bit drastic and there are loads of in-between options. We give your baby a cuddle then put her down and walk away. If she cries, we give it a couple of minutes before going back in again and repeating the process. Our baby isn't left alone crying for ages, but we're also not rocking her for hours. Cuddle, put down, walk away, wait, repeat if necessary.

Do you have a partner? If so, I recommend making a plan together then finding a good time (such as over a long weekend, or when you're not too busy) to put it into action. And STICK TO IT!! It won't take that long to make a huge change.

Perhaps you could do shifts in the night - for example, he does the soothing from midnight until 3am (while you sleep with earplugs) then you soothe from 3am - 6am?

I've been chatting about a similar issue on this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/1464116-my-10month-DS-still-waking-up-every-2-3hrs-through-the-night-help

Anyway, GOOD LUCK!! The main thing is to work out what your ideal scenario is, work out a plan and STICK TO IT.

From personal experience, the rewards (unbroken sleep, being able to go out and have a babysitter, free time in the evenings) have been SO SO worth it.

x

PS. Loads of typos above, especially the bit where I said "we give your baby a cuddle". Clearly that is nonsense - we're too busy cuddling our own!

Happypotamus, how does your DH get DC to sleep if you would normally BF? I'm going back to work in a month, and don't know how my DH is going to get DD to sleep when I'm on nights.

Also, in defence of HVs, mine is very laid back, and was happy with us co-sleeping right from the off (when DD would only sleep on me or next to me). Basically if it works, and it's done safely, she's happy! In fairness we live in a very deprived area, major social/drug issues etc, so my sleep issues are the least of her worries...

Liking pippippip's post. I think it is important to be consistent whatever you decide and that will help you see results quicker. CC is different to crying it out. Wouldn't advise leaving baby screaming for hours (don't think that's a good idea at all), rather stop the night feeding and go in every few minutes or so to sooth and then leave again. Worked wonders for us within about 4 nights. Cue for us was when DS's sleeping seemed to deteriorate at about 10 months and when he was getting more than enough solids and milk during the day.

Glad you have seen improvements, hang in there it really will get better! :)

Hi Ginfox, how old is your baby?

I suggest you start getting your baby into a bedtime routine where the breastfeed ISN'T the last step.

For example: dinner, bath, breastfeed, story, put down in cot, parent walks away.

Then if your baby cries you give it a couple of minutes, walk in and give them a quick cuddle, put them down again, and walk away again. Repeat, repeat, repeat. This could take many goes the first couple of night but you'd be surprised how quickly (four nights?) you'll have a baby who simply goes to bed when put down.

By putting our daughter in her cot when she was sleepy but not yet actually asleep, we could stop "feeding to sleep" and allowed my partner to put our daughter to bed when I wasn't home. Plus it cut out all that rocking, swaying and tip-toeing around.

I'm just speaking from personal experience, by the way, I'm not an expert!!!

this is what i did with my daughter, we co-sleep so I've never left her alone, and she now sleeps through the night! It took a few weeks.

www.awareparenting.com/cryinginarms.htm

have a read and I'm happy to answer any further questions!

agentsmith We do have a kingsize bed but wasn't sure how it'd work safely if DH is in it too? Do you put baby in middle?

I do think perhaps I'm just going to have to be a bit tougher (on me I mean). I'm doing the softly softly approach but I just don't think it's working. I know he's teething which is a factor but it's not doing any of us any good just letting this situation rumble on.

I think pip might be right. I don't like the CC idea but I think Pip is right in that it is put in quite an emotive way. 'controlled crying' and 'crying it out' sounds awful but if in reality you are there offering lots of reassurance and not leaving baby on his own to cry then maybe it's kinder in long run as he'll get sorted out quicker?

I wish the gradual retreat was working but I just can't get beyond the initial falling asleep (baby in cot awake no probs) but then every awakening after that I have to get baby to sleep by rocking or bf or he just screams as soon as he is in his cot even if he appears ALMOST asleep.

I have v busy week at work next week but then it'll be quiet so i think I'll muddle through next week and then talk to DH about a plan. He has been helping a bit more in the evenings which is great so hopeful that he'll be on board.

Thanks for all suggestions. Hopefully some other people in same boat might find some useful ideas here too. We'll get there in the end.

Surely his teeth will come through SOON and that'll help?!

I used to bf mine to sleep and tried to prevent crying at all costs (Pantley approach which I do like as it is kind to children). Then read Aletha Solter's "Tears and Tantrums" and learned that it might be kinder to let children cry as it is beneficial means of ridding themselves of daily frustrations and worries - IF and only if done in parents arms. I have found it really works, and works also on me in that I no longer take crying as something I am must stop or that if he carries on crying, I am somehow a bad mother. Since, have done as follows:
-He gets his usual evening nursing
-Then I withdraw and tell him reassuringly that "todo sleeps"
-First he cries whilst I cuddle him quietly and without trying to stop him (when I started this approach crying lasted longer and sometimes sounded quite angry but I let him release such feelings without losing nerve as I knew this would lead to a happy and calm and relaxed sleep).
-As I continue gently cuddling him, he will eventually stop and have a happy sleep for about 5-6 hours, then asks for more bf, sometimes. If it is too early (I try to keep the feeds about 6 hours apart at night) I just tell him again that "todo" sleeps and if he cries, accept his crying. He usually settles quickly.
It did take some more crying in the beginning, and it seems that children who are more stressed out need longer cries before settling.
We sleep next to DS bed but he stays happily in his, btw. With my older son, we co-slept, he was between me and DH and this never caused any problems.
Good luck!
M

Ok so whilst I think the Pantley approach has been helpful to an extent, it isn't working in helping baby to self settle and us all to sleep longer long term. Baby still ending up in my bed at the mo and husband really not happy.

So whilst I was interested in the crying in arms, thanks mayamama, I am not sure this is right for us. I tried it out of interest last night and it just escalated and escalated to hysteria. This might be argued taht this is positive according to the philosophy of the method, it just didn't seem right.

So I'm thinking maybe PU/PD might work for us or pips method.

I think some crying is unavoidable and I think I can see the point that it's not natural NOT to cry (husband never cries. I think it's weird) . Not healthy to suppress emotion in adults so probably not in babies either?

Need to decide, stop being a wuss and just get on with it really. I think I've just read so much I get all ideas mixed up in my head come bedtime so need to be very clear before starting & so can explain to DH.

Hey,
I do hope you find what suits you all. I know how hard it can be, especially with that age and all the problems there are (developmental milestones, teething...daily excitement....Oh gosh...). Just wanted to report a bizarre incident we had last night.

After many months of procrastinating we went out finally last night, DH and I, just before bedtime, and left DCs with nanny. They have done that once before, only once. So as we were leaving, DS2 (2yrs) was not happy. He had not had his bf and found the whole situation quite unacceptable. But off we went and once we were gone he settled quickly.

Anyway. We got back late, and around 12am (unusually early for him, usually he has his nighttime feed at 2am), DS2 demanded his beverage. But after finishing, instead of turning over and sleeping, he started fussing and then screaming, demanding something we could not understand. He then stood up, screaming unconsolably, did not let me hold or touch him, then toddled out of the door and wandered to the stairs, still crying, screaming. He looked down the stairs (just as if picking up from when we left) and complained more. I sat down next to him and let him know I was there in case he has now decided he has made his point :) After a few more sobs alone, he came to cry on my shoulder and allowed me to transport him back to our bedroom. There he finally settled, after having checked daddy was there too and having been in his arms for a little while.

What I found so interesting however, was that it appeared he had kind of "postponed" the crying - he had not liked that we left but there had been little point crying then. So when he found us in the middle of the night, it was almost as if he had replayed the whole scene with the result he had originally desired! Incredible little minds that seem to be able to find their own balance, at least sometimes... :)