Unconditional Parenting - DD (2) hitting - what to do??

[OrdinarySoup]

Hi there

Firstly apologies if this has already been done but I couldn't find a thread...
My DD has been hitting me and occasionally other children for a little while now.

I have been following nursery's lead in terms of how to deal with it, but I can't reconcile making her say sorry/ time out with the ideas behind unconditional parenting (which I love) and frankly I feel totally lost as to how to deal with it.

I do as much as possible to be patient, explain things etc etc but she is 2 (!), and gets frustrated/ big for her boots and hits out. She will immediately give a cuddle and she say repeatedly that you "don't hit", so is it just a case of waiting for her to come out of it?

Any tips or sympathy most welcome...!

What do you do if she hits another child when you are with her? What do you do when she hits you?

I certainly don't think you should just wait for her to grow out of it, she might not! I imagine you don't want her t turn in to a bully so I think you really need to make it clear that hitting is completely unacceptable.

Sorry I didn't provide loads of detail but of course I tell her straight away that it's not acceptable, ask her to apologise, sit her out if she does it again, etc etc (and this is whether she hits me or anyone else). Nursery are doing the same. I am certainly not just waiting for her to grow out of it.

My question (badly put it seems) is how to "discipline" a child who is doing this but doing so in line with unconditional parenting principles, which do not advocate getting them to say sorry, time out etc etc. I just find it difficult to square the UP approach with something as unacceptable as hitting that needs to be dealt with: how do UP parents deal with it?

I think a lot of 2yos find it very difficult to apologise, no matter the method of parenting you use.

I did not UP but DD found it hard at that age as well, now she is 3 she understands much better.

My approach was that if she refused to say sorry I didn't force her, but apologised myself and took her away, so if we were out at a group I would take her home. If we were home I would send her for a time out. When she came back from time out I would have put away whatever she was playing with, or if it was a fight with another child, given it to them to play with.

Time out to think is important, if you think of it not as a punishment but as a chance to reflect on what they are doing, and as a message that if they behave in a certain way they are not able to do other things.

Sorry to sound amazingly stupid but what exactly are the "rules" behind UP? I'm just a bit confused as it sounds like you don't agree with time out, apologies etc as consequences.
Sorry if it's a really stupid question :(

If she hits another child when you are out I would give her one warning that if she hits again then you will leave, if she does hit again then make sure you follow through. You don't have to do this in an angry way, just explain calmly that she can't play with the other children if she hits them, as it hurts them. I think for hitting it is important that they say sorry so I would encourage that as much as possible, ask her how she would feel if she hit someone. Is she usually resistant to saying sorry? Teach her about empathy as much as possible.
If she hits someone when you are at home I would remove her to another room where there are no toys, calmly explain to her why we do not hit. You don't have to leave her there so it's not a traditional time out but it will give her time to think about her actions. If she has a tantrum wait with her until she calms down. Always be consistent!

This might help?

www.ahaparenting.com/ask-the-doctor-1/toddler-biting-aggressive-behavior?A=SearchResult&SearchID=4009959&ObjectID=3932789&ObjectType=35

Thanks, guys.

HardBoiled your post makes alot of sense and does help to "square the circle" on this one for me. In some ways it is what I've been doing, but putting it down as you have done makes it looks like a plan of action instead of my trying desperately to come up with a way of dealing with it in the heat of the moment! And thanks for the link, Snusmumriken - another part of my grand plan falls into place...

Tantrumsandballoons - UP, as I understand it, anyway - suggests that time out etc is a form of love withdrawal, so you are getting your child to behave by showing them that you only love them when they behave a certain way: it doesn't distinguish the behaviour from the child. Also insisting they say sorry doesn't get them to feel sorry - again they are only doing what they are told, not what they think is the right thing to do. It all sounds a bit hippy, I admit!

She is getting worse at saying sorry, I suspect because we (and nursery) make such an issue of it. She always gives a cuddle to whoever is on the receiving end, but often insisting on her actually saying sorry leads to another face-off. I tend to think at this age it's more important to show that she is sorry but if she refuses to apologise to another person I will do it for her, so she sees how important it is.

If she refuses to apologise I would explain to her the importance of saying sorry but wouldn't force it. I wouldn't apologise for her though as I think she needs to learn to be responsible for her own actions. I think it does help to have a specific plan for dealing with behaviour, otherwise I end up getting stressed and cross and escalating the situation!

That's exactly what's been happening. We ended up with a 20 minute "session" yesterday and by the end I think we'd both forgotten what started it!

Rubyrubyrubyruby - thanks for the post but that's kind of exactly the opposite of what UP advocates, although I totally appreciate that everyone has their own way of doing things and it's often by seeing what other people do that you get to what is going to work for you.

If anyone is interested, the link above linked through to the following game plan:

1.Set a limit (?We don?t hit?)
2.Offer empathy and acceptance of her feelings (?You are disappointed?)
3.Let her discharge her feelings by crying with your comfort.
4.Help her explore ways to shift her mood.

Bloody hell - I struggle with 1! Hats off. I think that's the "problem" with anything like UP - it requires time. And endless patience. Or a limitless supply of wine.... It's an ideal, I suppose, and I can see that it would become even further from reality when there is more than one child in the mix or life conspires against you (or the wine runs out).

I can understand your doubts about time out. I've heard that time out was originally a strategy for children with a developmental age of 3 years + and was never intended for two year olds. I suspect that most two year olds are not capable of the thought processes they are supposed to be having during time out. I would use it with my 9 year old - he is capable of genuinely regretting his behaviour.

I can also see that the whole "say sorry" thing is more trouble than it's worth (often we end up doing that for the benefit of the aggrieved other parent than to discipline our own child).

But surely you must - in the heat of the moment - offer comfort to the struck child first? Surely the adults leaping to the defence of the hit child is part of the phenomenon and a behaviour that you want to model for her for the future? Then couldn't you move to
1.Set a limit (?We don?t hit?)
2.Offer empathy and acceptance of her feelings (?You are disappointed?)+mummy was cuddling other child, that made you feel x"
3.Let her discharge her feelings by crying with your comfort.
4.Help her explore ways to shift her mood.

She will grow out of it. I love UP too, never punish/ignore/use timeouts, did the vigilant hovering, avoiding triggering situations (eg putting special toys away before visitors arrive), always vocalise the most positive possible motivation ('were you feeling a bit worried that Michael had the car and you wanted it? Can you see that Michael's upset now? You don't really want Michael to be upset, you were just worried about the car?' - vital to do this about other children when they hit yours too) and urging him to 'use his words'.
Have never gone further than apologising myself and asking 'would you like to say sorry?'. It's wonderful now at 3 1/4 seeing him apolgise when he means it (has done this for 6 months now, plus genuine concern for other child - hurts usually accidental now).
It's tough doing up/gentle discipline: it requires faith in your child that s/he is innately social and will learn how to behave acceptably. That faith is scoffed at in our culture I think.

Thanks lingle and MavisG - this is all really helpful. I think it is really hard to challenge the "way things are done" and yes, lingle, I totally agree that much of the time we end up dealing with our children in a way that is geared towards satisfying other people's expectations, even if we don't realise it.

MavisG - it's really positive to hear that the approach has worked in your case: it is very difficult to do things differently and to stick to what you feel is right but seeing the results must be wonderful.

DS is a bit younger, but i take hold of his hands gently but firmly, get him to look me in the eye, and then say firmly "No. We don't hit." If i let go of his hands and he does it again, i simply lift him up and put him back down somewhere he can do no harm to anyone and go about my business, ignoring any tantrums that ensue. He's too young to understand/ say 'sorry' though (17 mo).

Oh, and they do grow out of it. My niece went through a hitting stage when she was a similar age (she only hit my sister, not other kids) and she grew out of it quickly enough.

I don't insist on sorry-I think contrite behaviour is enough.

I have just come back from a playdate where my son hit , pushed and scratched his friend (3 seperate incidents)

I have just come back from a playdate where my son hit, pushed and scratched his friend (3 seperate incidents). He has been behaving this way for a while now and no matter what I say this phase continues. I could tell my friend was (understandably) annoyed by this and commented how her son doesn't understand that mine doesn't have to say sorry and isn't punished. I guess I was struggling with justifying my parenting choices when they don't seem to be working! Searched and found this thread which I think is helping me refocus on why I don't do time outs etc. God, it's hard sometimes though...and is not a "quick fix". But how do we reconcile our (somewhat slower?) UP choices with seeing your child hurting another? Does that make sense?!

Giraffe - If you are UPing (which to me always sounds a bit like communism - lovely idea - ridiculous in practise) surely it is still ok to have a natural consequence? So after the first or tbf second time of him hurting the other child you should have taken him home. Then your friend can tell her child your DS was 'punished' for hitting and you can tell your DS it isn't a punishment but he can't be where others are if he will hit them.

I dont think its possible to use a theory 100%. Individual approach with elements of UP is the way forward discovering what works and what doesnt for you. FWIW I dislike the over-disciplining and false sorrys of 2 year olds at toddler groups. I also find the naughty step completely ineffectual, dd just treats it as a game. That said hitting, particularly when unprovoked needs punishing and I cant see a way past that.

I agree with brettgirl2, you do have to be flexable and not everything will work for every child you need to monitor the situation and if the approach isn't working, you will need to re-think.

I have a friend who UP, worked wonderfully on her very laid back, easy going first dd, not so good with her very different second dd, who also started hitting and biting aroung the ago of two. She is now five and I have watched her mum actually running away from her on several occasions now because she cannot get her to stop hurting her. We don't see her very often any more, as the dd just hits constantly, including me and my children. I can't really see how she is ever going to get better, though my friend insists she will grow out of it.

UP has to be done 100%. Book is very specific about that.

UP doesn't allow for "natural consequences", read the book, book is very specific that natural consequences are just another form of punishment. And any form of punishment is not UP, UP is All or Nothing approach. (Although I think you are allowed to mess up, like if natural consequences happen anyway, but that's inadvertant, it's intent that counts with UP, and intending your child to face Natural Consequences when you know child won't like them, is not UP). Particularly or perhaps because some children are unable to understand natural consequences of their actions.

Don't ask me what UP suggests instead, it's very much a muddle-your-way thru thing. I don't know if Giraffe's or anyone else's feelings are allowed to enter into it. For instance, her friend could say "I don't feel comfortable with your child behaving like that and showing no remorse so he has to leave now". Which would be extremely reasonable of her of course, even if it damages friendship. And probably consistent with UP. I don't think Giraffe can tell her son that he has to leave, though, as it would be perceived as a punishment by the boy.

Folk can take up just some UP ideas (as Brett suggested) , sure, but then it's not UP. It's sort of, "I like UP but not all of the ideas so I just want a thread about how to do adopt a few ideas."