Unconditional Parenting - DD (2) hitting - what to do??

[OrdinarySoup]

Hi there

Firstly apologies if this has already been done but I couldn't find a thread...
My DD has been hitting me and occasionally other children for a little while now.

I have been following nursery's lead in terms of how to deal with it, but I can't reconcile making her say sorry/ time out with the ideas behind unconditional parenting (which I love) and frankly I feel totally lost as to how to deal with it.

I do as much as possible to be patient, explain things etc etc but she is 2 (!), and gets frustrated/ big for her boots and hits out. She will immediately give a cuddle and she say repeatedly that you "don't hit", so is it just a case of waiting for her to come out of it?

Any tips or sympathy most welcome...!

Some adults don't say thank you i'm not saying that's right and I've always said it for my L.Os if they don't say it ;what I am saying is that under 2's don't UNDERSTAND why they are saying it or sorry for that matter.

don'teat it's true of course you can't always be there and other L.O.s will hit yours too, other parents can be a hindrance or a help in that situation. it's not easy but they DO grow out of it mostly .

Just out of interest (and because I will probably not get round to reading the book), what is the thinking behind the idea that punishment or showing the consequences of actions to a child?

Also what has made UPers choose this method? I just can't work out from the post what the aim of it is.

Just thinking of my own childhood(80s) where clear boundaries and punishments were in place. I can't remember ever feeling like I was any less loved because I was punished or because there were consequences. I also feel that there may have been actual blood shed if my dsis and I were not punished for fighting etc. So yes it would be interesting to hear if anyone can stick to the rules of it witg more than one child. Ta

I am having huge issues with my 4 yr old at the moment he has been aggressive to other children since he was 6 months old and has a reputation as a bully he is evil to other children and I try not to take him out anymore, but have another child to entertain so go out in the holidays. The weird thing is as a child apart from his pushing and hitting he is rarely naughty he never has tantrums and to parent on a day to day basis he is a total breeze. At nursery he has never attacked anyone and doesnt attack any of his friends, just random children but I have worked out he loves the attention he gets as I obviously disipline him and he loves it doesn't phase him one bit so now going for the ignoring him and not doing time out or leaving whereever we are as he relishs this and talks about it for the rest of the day, so when he pushed someone yesterday I didn't react and he said 'look mummy you missed my pushing, it was a big one??' mummy I pushed someone and he got so angry because I said nothing, today was incident free but so difficult knowing how to play it!!!

Some children love the attention and they don't care how they get it. I would make sure that you give him lots of attention when he is doing things well. It is all too easy to ignore a child who is playing quietly.
I would just tell him, in a bored voice as if it is too tedious for words, 'you can't push or I will move you'. Then when he pushes you just remove him, without saying anything. If he attempts to discuss it, which he will, you just sound a bit baffled and say, in a calm, bored, voice 'I told you that I would move you' - never alter the sentence - sound like a broken record. Let him go back after a while. Repeat as necessary.

This is so interesting. My DDs are older than op's DC, and we are at the stage now when 'I'm sorry' doesn't cut it any more and I am always saying I don't want to hear sorry, I want to see it.
But I was thinking about 'I love you'. As most parents do, I always said this to my DDs from minute 1. And it is so great when they reach an age to say it back. Do they know what that means? Is it a 'forced' response. When does that become more real than please or thank you (or sorry)?

I think that older children can be even more judgemental of UP than adults which must be a problem. In our under fives church group there was a two year old whose parents used UP, meaning that the children saw nothing they recognised as consequences when he turned round and pushed a little girl a few months younger off her chair. She hit the flooor and put her teeth through her lip.

The three and four year olds were very anti him for the remaining weeks he was with us (this was about a month or so before his family were moving away). The other children refused to include him and acted very defensively towards the little girl, telling him not to hurt her. A cuddle offered by him (with his mum saying 'He won't say he is sorry, but this is his way of saying it. He's only trying to make things better.') was completely inappropriate when a child of less than two was having blood mopped up and only wanted her mum.

It would have been quite a problem for a cohesive happy little group, that they saw boundaries for themselves, but didn't see him being set any. (Disclaimer: this is obviously from the viewpoint of other under fives, not saying that his mum didn't have any boundaries).

DCs are very fair- they are not going to include a bully. Older DCs can also manipulate the UP parent- they are not silly!

I don't know anything about UP but all Dcs have to have boundaries; IMO and E they have to be age appropriate (if the the mother in the church group wasn't watching her DS like a hawk then she shouldn't have allowed him to be with other DCs).

With "I love you" surely they unconsciously see and feel your love by yr. behaviour to them isn't that how we all learn? There's no forcing is there? I'll never forget the first time DD1 hugged me back it makes me cry just thinking about it she was about 15 months old.

MEWKINS you've got to read the book.

UP thinking is, in part:
The world is a harsh place so kids need to know their parents love them unconditionally no matter what.

Plenty of academic studies show that kids who receive the most praise are the most insecure and not the highest achieving (most of these studies are about education settings, not in the home, but both settings have roughly same outcomes).

I think there are weird things you can do whilst UP. You can force child to do all sorts, as long as it's because you force them to make sure the right things happen, and not just to punish the child. So UP shouldn't be without boundaries, in theory.

I was thinking about lies... that what we call "manners" is mostly based on social lies. Please-thank you-Sorry-excuse me-pardon, you say them because it's good manners whether you meant them sincerely or not is secondary. Manners are form over substance. UP seems to say it's okay for kids to say those things if either sincere, OR as long as child does it voluntarily even if insincerely, because they respect the reason for those social lies (to protect social relationships). But that's quite a mature achievement, to lie to protect relationships. SO, what UP says is that children should be exempt from "manners" because of their immaturity. Beyond the baby stage when most of us hope children will start to practice manners.

Meanwhile, parents are expected (under UP) to actively lie to the kids. Because the child asks "Do you like my drawing?!" and UP parent is NOT supposed to give a truthful answer. Not what the child really wants to know and not an answer to the question. It's a lie of omission to deliberately avoid the child's question like that. So UP is modelling a different sort of social lie, and in a different way from tradition. But should still achieve the ultimate goal, of creating little liars like the rest of us (average 50 lies a day we each tell, or whatever it is).

(Long walk home from swim pool, too much time to think about all this)

Oh, sorry, it's a mere 3-6x daily lies told.
But I imagine it's 3-6x that for UP parents.

UP sounds completely bonkers -if some kid had hit mine in my house and the mother was not making him say sorry or doing anyting about it, I think I would have given the child time out myself.

I think that DCs who have been brought up with UP will do the opposite with their own DCs - they will be so annoyed that they never got any praise as they were growing up.

I may have a read out of interest. Surely one of the big problens these kids will come up against is that sooner or later they will be in the big bad world. What happens when they go to school at 4 and the teacher treats them just the same as any other child with the same set of rules and punishment. Seems rather mean to me that a parent wouldn't prepare them for interacting nornally. Also, yes, politeness and manners may be based on 'lies' or perhaps just exaggerated truths, but in order to get on in the world you kind of need to be able to play along with it. So perhaps in the end you have a very LOVED child, but as an adult they may find it difficult to forge relationships, get on in life and work AND not even know that they should give up their seat to an old lady on bus.

A lot HE - if not they moan on MN about reward systems in schools!

It is interesting to me how many people think if you are not putting your child on a time out or making them say sorry you are not doing anything. There are many different ways of educating our children.
I don't recall ever being given a time out as a child. Ever. I think I am a very polite and considerate person (you'll have to take my word for it)!

In fact, I wonder how many people of my generation were? I only became aware of the idea of the naughty step, for example, watching Supernanny years ago, before I had kids. I thought it seemed a great idea. Until I had my own child and came across some literature which made more sense to me.

Incidentally, as I stated before I am not an UP parent. I don't follow a particular methodology. But I have found things I like in the book.
For what its worth, my son is generally a polite little boy who often says please and thankyou unprompted. Not always, but when he says it of his own volition it's just lovely! I expect the same to be true of "sorry" one day. (He is nearly 3).
One other thing (sorry to be going on)!! Many children go through a hitting stage, and it is just that - a stage. The way some people talk, its as if a time-out or whatever is a magic solution that stops a child from ever doing it again. Many children are repeat offenders, punishment or not.

I can't understand this vogue for a naughty step - I am not a UP parent and have never used one - nor to I enforce a meaningless 'sorry'.
I don't there is anything wrong with the method except that many people using it don't understand it!

Actually I don't like Supernanny at all; perhaps it's the editing because i know she does ''take on" the parents later but I can't get past the neglected screaming DCs being blamed for being D.Cs!

Supernanny is sorting out children who are completely out of control-it is quite different.

It is the parents that she has to change.

I know

What an interesting thread as I sit up with some insomnia at 4.00 a.m.

Thank you.

Can I add my 5p worth, please?

Time out isn't the same thing as the naughty step, in my humble opinion. It's time away from the situation, away from the child you have had a falling out with or whatever. There are times when DD was little where I sat with her on the step or wherever and we shared 'time out'. I found it does work in some situations and for some things and I would say it is different from the naughty step.

My own DD has done the gritted teeth 'sorry' hissed almost silently at another child or adult, I do find it hard at times but do feel it is appropriate for older children. For a younger child I might say 'show Bobby you are sorry, give him a hug' or whatever, if it was something the child could express and the other appreciate. Sorry is not a magic word that makes it all better, of course, and a hug that means sorry might just work!

Just saying the word - does it really mean they are sorry, no, but most kids are not pleased with a gift from great aunt gretta of a knitted sweater! It is manners and manners aren't really about lying (IMHO) they are about a form of speaking. In some languages it is not necessary to say 'please', English seems to have the most polite forms of any language I've heard! In order to operate well in English people need to understand how to use it, you get better service and things go smoother with manners!

Actually being sorry, that does take time and I do think it is worth cultivating in kids so when DD was little we did talk about how others felt etc. I think it is a real juggling act, like most parenting, between satisfying the injured child, the other parent and your child. BUT that is what life is about some of the time, working out the social rules of what is and is not acceptable etc.

Still struggling with my DD and her bahaviour!

I'd just say that none of this detracts from the love I feel for DD and sometimes it is working out how to convey dissaporval and love at the same time that is the real jugling act! Good luck OP.

A bit away from your original question but have you read any books by Alfie Kohn?

The one that springs to mind is called "Punished by Rewards" www.alfiekohn.org/books/pbr.htm

He has also written books on UP.

What he summarises well IMO is that the "normal" parenting methods aim to get immediate compliance with the child becoming extrinsically motivated due to the threat of time-out etc or just saying the word "sorry" regardless of how you actually feel about the situation. Whilst the UP ones taker longer to see the positive results, but then they do, you get a child who is intrinsically motivated.

When my 2.5 yr old DD hits etc. we talk about how the hitting would make the other child feel. If she gets hit we talk about how she feels. Slowly I see her making sense of it.

We do talk a lot about feelings, and work on aspects of emotional intelligence and empathy.

I really like these articles on emotional intelligence:
playathomemom3.blogspot.ca/2011/07/teaching-emotional-intelligence-during.html
www.ahaparenting.com/BlogRetrieve.aspx?PostID=112264&A=SearchResult&SearchID=2500586&ObjectID=112264&ObjectType=55

At dinner this evening she noticed her favourite plate had been cleaned, and asked who washed it (my DH). Later on, completely unprompted, she went up to DH, gave him a hug and said "thank you daddy for washing my plate for me to use". I personally much prefer this, to me having forced / prompted / reminded her to say "thank you".

What Kohn's books lack is suggestions and ideas on tools to use instead of the traditional time-outs etc. which is an aspect that my husband struggles with especially.

As a side note, my mother (aged 62) behaves appallingly the majority of the time, then just says the word "sorry" and everyone is meant to forget what she has done, ready for her to do it again. (I was raised by my grandparents for the majority of my childhood). So I have seen and experienced first hand someone who just says the word "sorry" rather than meaning it.

I wish you (OP) the very best of luck with your parenting philosophy. It sounds similar to us, in that you don't follow UP 100% but use aspects of it. I really want to raise children who are intrinsically motivated, and although slow to show the rewards, what I do see from DD is simply wonderful.

I thought UP was from Alfie Kohn.
Nothing wrong with it except that it is open to a lot of misunderstanding and can result in very 'wet' parenting if not done well.
I am not at all keen on your links. DCs do what you do and not what you say so you don't need to keep labouring the point. Personally I get very irritated with people who say ' I understand you are angry because...........' I really don't care - I think 'yes I am (or something a bit stronger!) WHAT are YOU going to do about it!'
There are other ones that I don't like as in 'you are hungry but it is nearly dinner time but you can't wait. Let's find a snack to make your body feel better' . I would do 'sorry, it is nearly dinner time, not long to wait - why not go and play with..........?
I don't think that you need to keep stating the obvious as in 'you are mad that your tower fell over'- just turn it into a game as in 'let's build one together - now you can knock it over!'