My 3 year old DS has been bitten 4 times by same boy at nursery.

[Emsmom]

My son has been at his nursery for two to three mornings a week for 18 months. No incidents to report until the one I will explain. He really enjoys it there, has some nice friends and very caring staff. He found it hard to sepearate from me but in time has really thrived.

A few months ago anothr boy started in the nursery who is about 2 and a half. In this time my son has been bitten by him four times. Once on the face, once on the hand and twice on the back. The back bites have been bad. The most recent bite this week was bad enough that a full upper and power teeth mark set in and the skin was peeling. I had to take my son to a and e. The first three times I let the nursery reassure me that they were trying to deal with it, working with mum etc. But now I have had enough. Since the first bite my son has been scared of this boy, cries out his name in his sleep saying "no no and then the boys name". He asked me every day before nursery if the boy will be there and if it is one of the two days they share he begs me not to take him.

I fell terrible subjecting my son to this. It isn't right anymore. I know my son is no angel and I am not pretending he has never hit anyone or snatched a toy. But this seems over the line. After the last bite I saw the mum during the pick up on the path outside. I introduced myself and my son, explained the situation, and calmly showed her the bite. The nursery had been telling me that they were making the mum aware, but I wasn't sure she realised how bad things were. I waited until there were no other mums around as I wasn't trying to embarrass her, but I really need some action to be taken. She apologised at the time but has subsequently complained about me to the nursery that other parents may have seen our discussion. So now she is very angry with me for alienating her son.

Staff tell me he has bitten other children, and that the bites are mostly unprovoked.

I have now arranged to move one of my sons nursery days so that they will now only have one conflicting day. My only other option is to remove my son from that day, reducing his time there to two days. As he is starting reception in September, I didn't want his time to go down and had been considering increasing it except for this issue.

Sorry for the long post, but my real question is, what would you expect from the nursery at this point? Should I be complaining to ofsted? Ay advice from anyone?

Christ almighty if you child hurts another you apologise to their parent! That's just basic manners!

Isn't it a normal reaction?

Your child knocks another over, on purpose or accidentally, you say OMG I'm so sorry. That's just an automatic reaction, surely?
A parent says your child bit theirs and had to go to A&E, you say OMG how awful, I am sorry, is he OK, did it need stitches? I will talk to the nursery and see what they are doing to stop this happening again.

Hmm, I'm not sure. I'd apologise if i was there and should have been supervising better, for sure.

In fact, in my shame and embarrassment I'd prob apologise in this circumstance too, ie, if cornered and told by another parent. But I'm not sure why, and I'm not sure if it's the right thing. What 'wrong actions' has the mother got To apologise for? Unless her child, even when she's not there is an extension of her?

And I'm not for a moment suggesting not being caring and concerned, of course I'd think that, gosh, that's awful, poor him, is he ok, is appropriate, just a bit unsure about the apology.

I would just apologise without even thinking about it. Sorry is something I say a lot.

I am English

"gosh, that's awful, poor him, is he ok," is also an appropriate thing to say.

I would mean it as in I am sorry that your child has been hurt, rather than I must grovel at your feet for forgiveness as my child is evil, IYSWIM.

I would be sorry that their child had been hurt. And I would be sorry that it was my child that hurt them.

My advice to the OP is to move your child from this nursery completely.

I realise this might seem like punishing your own child by making him deal with change - but this nursery is failing him, pure and simple - it's not a good nursery imo.

I say this because my dd was in a primary class with a violent child for several years, the school wouldn't deal with it properly and wouldn't even communicate openly about what went on in the classroom due to "confidentiality" whereby it seemed they bent over backwards to protect the child being violent but had little concern for the victims of the violence or preventing future attacks. The violence was of a dangerous type - unprovoked hard kicks in the head etc

I thought at the time that it was for the school to resolve the problem or remove the child in question rather than for me to remove my child. Eventually the child moved schools and the whole class relaxed and could get on with learning but it took about 4 years.

With hindsight I should have moved my own child. The school wasn't great in many other ways but I had no experience of how other schools were run to compare ours with. The real eye opener for me was how much happier my dd was in secondary school.

Move your child, OP. You have tried to resolve the situation but you cannot do this alone. This nursery is not good enough for him and is not a safe place for him.

Yes, I think that's what I mean, Sardine, I've done it without thinking too. But going to find the other mother, who wasn't around at the time, and expecting an apology does kind of imply that she should, that she's responsible or something.

I think because I've been on what feels like many sides of this; I had a toddler, not biter but scratcher, then a different child with sn who could be extremely challenging, but who subsequently had to leave school largely because of being targeted by another child with sn, and over the years I've found that

I found it worse being the mother of the 'attacker' than the 'attackee', in terms of feeling very shit indeed

And having been the 'attackers' mother I really felt a great deal of compassion for the child who was at a stage of his own development that meant he was making my ds very unhappy, and for his parents, when it happened to us.

In my case the school really couldn't have done much more.

I'm not really coming up with any cogent argument, I'm well aware! Just musing, really.

And I'm really sorry this is happening to your ds, OP. I'd really agree that the nursery need to be shadowing the biter and it must feel horrible to feel like your ds is afraid and unsafe.

I totally agree with Pagwatch

I don't think any good ever comes of talking to the parents despite what you may think.

Tell the nursery to deal with it - it may be they need extra staff to make sure the little child whose biting is being closely supervised.

Its a horrid situation and I feel much sympathy for all involved.

I thought about this over night, and I think that there is no definitive answer - it would depend on the parents, the children and the nursery (re speaking to the parent.

But I do know that for me, three of the four bites would be absolutely three too many.

I appreciate everyone's advice. I did not approach the mother to get an apology or to make her feel bad. I just wanted to open some communication about the issue and make her aware of the severity. I think she had been made aware her son was biting, but not that maybe one child had been the target so many times.

Also, I am not saying I want her child excluded either. I was really looking for advice on what I should be demanding from the nursery to safeguard my child and the other children there. And while the other boy isn't my concern, the nursery seems to be failing him as well as he seems to be biting a lot and is probably receiving negative reinforcement. Also, I know my son does not want to play or interact with this boy, and for all I know other children may now feel the same. Which doesn't help this boy either. He deserves a positive nursery experience as much as my son does. I think he needs to be shadowed and knowing the nursery doesn't have the resources for this I don't know what they think can be resolved. It is clear the issue isn't going away.

For now I am removing my son for one of the days and he will go two mornings. It is just a preschool and mornings only so unfortunately I cannot extend his day. I feel sorry for my son that he is losing out but unless I take him out completely I have no alternative right now. in doing some local research there is nowhere to move him to at this stage and I don't want him completely out of a school environment.

I am going to be speaking with the nursery again next week and I hope they have a plan in place to safeguard the children there. If I don't see any changes I may need to take this issue further.

Well, the parents are "responsible" for the child's actions. That is not about "blame" - I would not blame a parent or a toddler - but factually, legally, realistically - a parent bears the responsibility. If your child breaks another child's eyeglasses, for instance - as a parent, you ought to make restitution, and yes, apologise.

The nursery is responsible for keeping the children safe, but when they cannot do so by taking reasonable measures, then they need to acknowledge that they cannot accomodate the biting toddler.

If a child has SNs, certainly he or she is entitled to care. But it needs to be appropriate care, and that includes a social setting where he or she is able to be properly supervised. That's obviously not happening here, and possibly cannot, because the ratio of careworkers to children probably does not allow for it without a disadvantage to the other children in care.

Blame simply doesn't enter into it. I can't imagine why any parent would be upset/annoyed at another parent letting them know that their kid had done an injury to the other.

Hmmm... so the OP should approach the mother to get her to apologise to show a good example to a two and a half year old, who won't realise what the apology is for if it's not immediate? That's just sidestepping the real reasons it's not a good idea for one parent to approach another about this sort of thing, when neither party has witnessed the incident and there is no prior relationship. Manners are irrelevant, the nursery really shouldn't have said who even did it.

Absolutely in a playgroup situation where you are both there or with older children who can appreciate an apology after the event, that make senses but it's not that obvious in this situation. How would the mother "make restitution"?

I'd do the automatic apology thing too, by the way.. but it's not going to make one whit of difference and is obscuring the fact that the responsibility for supervision of children in a nursery is not down to the mother. The mother will have been informed of the biting incident anyway, so any steps that she needs to take will have been outlined by the nursery (who have more awareness of how to manage this than the mother).

The only discussion to be had is between the OP and the nursery.

The OP didn't talk to the other mother in order to get an apology, I don't know where that suggestion has come from TBH.

My son was a biter, same kid every day for about a week. I trusted daycare to handle it. Turns out they were removing him from the situation and sitting with him for 5 mins talking about how wrong it was. I told my friend who is a bit of an expert on child behaviour and she laughed at their punishment and said how lovely it must have been for my son to have 1:1 with a teacher for 5 mins and how special that would make him feel. Next day I told them if it happened again to almost knock my son out of the way keeping their back to him as they fuss over the victim then swiftly remove him from the room without speaking or eye contact. That was the last day my ds ever bit anyone, both my kids have been bitten heaps of times- in one case for weeks by the same kid. It never crossed my mind to make a big deal of it.

The OP didn't talk to the other mother in order to get an apology, I don't know where that suggestion has come from TBH.
If that's what was taken from my post above, it is certainly not my point. And I can't speak for the OP. But if it were me, I would speak to the other parent to a) be sure she had knew the severity and impact of what her child had done to mine. I think she'd want to know; I'd feel the nursery's communication was not to be relied upon since this was a fourth incident; and I would also feel I had a right to express my distress to the person responsible. And again, the parents are responsible, although not to blame. Just as if my own DD pushes a child down and injures them, I am responsible.

Absolutely in a playgroup situation where you are both there or with older children who can appreciate an apology after the event, that make senses but it's not that obvious in this situation. How would the mother "make restitution"?

Seriously? The only point you can see to an apology is to set an example to the child??? For starters, I would, as the mother of the biter, make an apology to the other parent for the parents' worry and anguish! When a child has been injured badly enough to go to A&E, by your child, even acidentally or without malice, an apology is in order. Sheesh.

An apology is not an admission of fault or a moral climbing-down, for god's sake! Do you not apologise if you accidentally injure someone? When you bump into a person?

As for restitution, in this case an apology would probabloy constitute restitution. But for the sake of argument, let's say the child's shirt was torn in the incident - as the mother of the biter, yes, I'd offer to replace the shirt. Point, again, being that the parent is responsible and the other family should not be the one to bear the burden of the actions, insofar as it is possible to make restitution, one should.

Sleepless, I'm with you on the attention thing. When DD was biting (about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 yo) I would try to give all the fuss and attention to the "victim" make a big fuss of them and kiss them better, say how much it hurt, whilst keeping dd at a safe distance. It was a juggling act.

I'd apologise for my daughter biting, because every time she does I feel mortified and a bit like a failure as a parent. Of course by opening up dialogue with me, I'll probably also sob all over the other parent because I am at my wits end dealing with it.

I think you are doing the right thing safeguarding your child, are you also speaking to the nursery about how they are dealing with it?

If this child is a known biter then the nursery should have somebodies eyes fixed on this boy permanently until this problem is solved. 1 bite happens, a 2nd oh dear the 3rd hmm the 4th enough. My child was bitten twice by the same child , as well this child was biting other children. The nursery moved an afternoon worker to the morning to act as a watcher and the problem in co operation with the parents was solved - total episode about 2 weeks.

Forgot to add; my friend said you can't stop biting from intervention before the act, it is always controlled by the response in cases of repeat biting. She said this is why there are often repeat biters because they receive so much attention (shadowing/attention grabbing) that it becomes more habitual.

You say it's a privately run nursery, our DD goes to one too. It is brilliant. We did have one issue and I was concerned for her wellbeing, I pulled her out immediately, booked a GP appt and we evaluated the situation and then I rang and wrote to the manager saying that I would not be paying for any further sessions until the situation was resolved.

We had a meeting with the manager, my husband took time off work and also came to the meeting, we made notes and brought the GP's note.

The matter was resolved bloody quickly. And I didn't pay for the sessions we missed, I said that as far as I was concerned they had breached the contract first my not maintaining the safety of my child.

As for you speaking to the mother, it's your child, you felt that was the right thing to do, she might have been embarrassed but your child had been badly hurt requiring medical attention. Unless the nursery were photographing your son to show her the bites she may not have realised the seriousness of them. What matters is ensuring your child is safe. A phone call to OFSTED can also be useful to find out more about child safety, are they finning in an incident form when these bites occur?

Finning? Bloody iPad. Filling!

brdgirl, you're misconstruing me. I didn't say about an apology being an example, someone else said something about that

I don't think it's a good idea for someone in the OP's situation to approach the other parent because you don't have a relationship with this parent, you both weren't there, neither of you really know what happened and no, it's not the parent's responsibility in this instance because it's not a malicious behaviour, a child of this age can't be reasoned with it after the event as they don't have the language and the only solution is environmental modification which the parent can't dictate at nursery.

The most usual reasons for this type of behaviour is that for some reason, the biter can't communicate something and resorts to biting as a means of getting their point across and/or they are being playful and doing it affectionately. Occasionally it may be related to special needs of some sort. In all instances, it is up to the nursery to take action as they are acting in loco parentis, have the full facts and are the only ones who can do anything about it.

We'd all say sorry, of course I'd say sorry, I'd be mortified etc but there is absolutely nothing I could do and I think it's a bad idea to do it. I simply don't see why would you approach the parent other than, truthfully, out of a desire to share how terribly aggrieved you are that their child bit yours. And where does that come from?

Yes, everyone whose child has bitten feels bloody awful and a failure but I have seen so many people on MN get up on a massive high horse about their child being bitten as if it were the child or parent's fault when generally a) it is a normal developmental behaviour, b) it's just part of being in nursery, most children will bite, be bitten or both in their time their and c) the nursery are the only party who have any control.

In this instance, we are talking about serious biting which really is a sign of the nursery managing it very poorly, so I would take issue with them. A bite as severe as described in the OP suggests poor supervision to me, it's not easy to inflict that damage. I used to work with children who would bite me and actually even the most severely affected children with serous autism who are biting at 7/8/9 (and therefore quite powerful) won't be able to inflict anything like this damage very quickly.

The mother will have been told this happened (but not who) and will ge just as worried and who knows, may be facing special needs in her child. Why the need to have her apologise? It doesn't make sense to me. I would assume she felt bad about it, I wouldn't need to raise it with her, I don't think it's actually any of my business to go doing nursery's job for them when I pay them to safeguard my child. If I felt they couldn't do that, I would whip my child out of there quick smart. I wouldn't see it as having anything to do with the other child.

it's not the parent's responsibility in this instance because it's not a malicious behaviour,
but intent, malice, etc - doesn't matter. Still the parent's responsibility.

As I have said already, I am not blaming the child who bites or the parent. There is no 'high horse' being mounted here. But to abdicate responsibility for one's child's actions simply because one is not present, or to say "well, it wasn't intentionally harmful, and it didn't happen on my watch, so why should i get feel i need to take any action?" is preposterous.

You're really just picking up on words for the sake of it here, aren't you brdgrl?

Bottom line, not the OP's job to approach the parents. At all.

Please tell me how exactly you propose the parent takes action here that wouldn't have been taken as a result of the nursery dealing with this. Just one thing they can do as a result of the OP approaching them that will change the situation for the OP and her child will do fine, thanks.