falling out over toddler behaviour. AIBU and WWYD?

[Swimminglikeaduck]

I seem to have fallen out with my brother and Mother. But first, some facts.

I have a 2.2 year old dd. She sometimes hits other pre-schoolers when arguing over possession of toys and a couple of times she his swiped/hit another toddler for seemingly no reason at all. Ive dealt with all of these in the same way, namely:
Told her "we don't hit in this family" in a firm voice at eye level, then quickly gave immediate concern and attention to the victim, then picked up my dd and put her in time out, withdrawn any further attention from her for two minutes, then gone back to speak to her and bring her back to play.

This hitting phase seems to have started about two or three months ago, and although she chatters about time out and the no hitting rule, she still hits out.

Yesterday my dd goes in my dbros house and excitedly finds my dn(3.1) and her toys as im greeting my db and dsil.

Within a minute of being in the house dd finds a toy that she also owns at her own house (small piece of plastic jewelry nanny has bought both of them). She fondles it, dn tries to take it off dd, dd hits out at dn with plastic jewelry. She hits dn in the face (no marks) it probably shocked her more than anything, but may have hurt a little too. I feel this is pretty much usual toddler behaviour.

Dn cries. I try to give dn more attention than dd whilst trying to discipline dd too. Dn runs to her daddy (my brother), who then says this (in front of 3 year old dn):

do you mind if I tell my dd to hit your dd when she does that?
I splutter well, i cant tell you how to parent your child, but I dont think you should do that. he sees that Im angry and shocked that he would suggest his three year old hit my two two year old.

he responds with its just that my dd is always getting hit by your dd

I apologise and say Im doing my best to sort it out. I then totally helicopter my dd and his dd (and another 3children)for the rest of he visit so I can prevent any further upset. Fot the whole visit he stays in his arm chair and ignores the two toddlers and gets on with adult conversation.

My mum overhears all this and takes me aside and says "well, you wouldnt like your dd getting hit, he just thinks if the 3yr old retaliates, then the 2yr old will stop doing it. Basically, learn her lesson.

So now I get angry at mum, who never agrees with me and always tries to sit on the fence.

My dd is 2. She is learning with my help to control her impulses.

If he, or dsil, were to get on the floor with the children and help me stop dd in her tracks and help protect dn, then there would be fewer instances (there seems to be one or two or even three of these hitting issues each visit depending on how easily I can helicopter them)

If dn were to get annoyed with my dd and strike back, i would still maintain the no hitting rule and time out, and would hope that dn in the spirit of fairness would get a timeout with a gentler telling off(recognising that she was provoked). But I object to anyone being told to hit my dd.

I think we are basically clashing over parenting styles. His three children seem to be shouted at or sent to their room when being disciplined. Although I love his children dearly, I think they are often badly behaved, dont listen to their parents etc.
I am trying to deal with this hitting from my own dd in a calm and predictable manner. I realise my dn is upset when dd hits her, but actually they are great friends too, and she gets over it pretty quickly.

Could you wise people help me deal with this.

Should I be reacting to this hitting differently?

Should I avoid any meet ups for a while until dd has learnt to control herself better?

How can I stop getting irritated at my mum for always always seeing the other persons point of view? (i have apologised to her my my angry outburst and I know she was just trying to be fair to her own two children). I would love for her, just once, to say "in this instance I think you/your brotherr is right"

AIBU in thinking that my db and dsil should help with the helicoptering?

And finally, Im sorry if this was a boring read but I really am quite upset by it.

I don't know but I'd focus on their good points (kind, funny, caring, whatever) and I wouldn't really mention anything unless especially relevant just as I wouldn't mention how bright a child might be for no apparent reason.

I feel for you OP. Ds has been hit a few times in toddler group and it is embarrassing for the parents. Fortunately my dc have never hit an outsider but they have hit eachother ( and still do somtimes but not as much.) There are only 11 months between them, ds1 used to wallop ds2 about 5 times a day. I used to get down to his level and say a firm 'no hitting' and remove him from whatever he was playing with at the time. It took a few months but he stopped
eventually when he realised it wasnt getting enough attention.

At 2.2 they are far too young to understand time out.

i would just watch her like a halk and if you see her about to strike, distract her with something else. Also id give a warning before timeout.

left- agree with you, wouldn't normaly draw attention to any of my children, however there are moments, parents evenings, comments from in-laws, when I do need to say something descriptive so that there is common ground for understanding that he's (can't think of ANYTHING that isn't offensive !) a bit on the dim side, daft as a brush, not the full ticket - I honestly struggle with this.

OP, I have been on both sides of the fence. My DS1 has never laid a finger on another child, whereas my DS2 went through a long pushing / hair pulling phase and my disciplining methods (firm no, naughty step etc) did not seem to be effective in stopping him. I can sympathise with both you and your DB - it's AWFUL watching your child get hit over and over again, and it's incredibly frustrating when it's your child doing the hitting.

My DS2 finally outgrew his pushing stage when he was exactly the same age as your DD. I found that the only disciplining method that really worked was to say, after the first incident, if that happens again we are going home and to follow through with the threat. I realise this will be annoying for you if you have driven for an hour and only been there 10 mins, but if it works it will be worth it, right? I only had to do it twice before the pushing stopped.

I do NOT agree with your DB's method of telling DN to hit back, especially as he is encouraging an older child to hit a younger one. I also think your DM should stay out of this. Tell her calmly that you and your DB need to sort this out between you. Maybe tell your DB how you plan to deal with it, so he knows you are taking the problem seriously, and ask him if, in return, he would leave it up to you to discipline your DD and not tell DN to hit her.

Can't you just say learning doesn't come as easy to him as it does to some children, calling him dim just seems so sad IMO

I am about the number of people who seem to be suggesting that it is ok for your DB to encourage one child to hit another (younger) child. You seem to be doing everything you can to help your dd through this stage.

So many people are saying that your db should not be expected to 'helicopter' but his dd is part of the equation and is probably winding up your dd in some way - as children do - it doesn't excuse the hitting, of course. Also, your dd is his family and he should be spending at least some time on the floor with you helping these young cousins get along with each other. IME, young dc need adult help to work out how to play and 'be' with each other. Hitting is one obvious way that problems manifest themselves, and a way that attracts the attenion of others, but it is not the only thing that happens during play amongst dc that recquires adult intervention.

Your db is wrong. You might need to be a bit firmer with your dd, but his response is totally inappropriate. Unfortunately a lot of people think like that though.

Quite an interesting article here on toddlers/emotion and behaviour regulation. www.incredibleyears.com/ParentResources/Incredible-Toddlers-ch3_by-Carolyn-Webster-Stratton.pdf My DS (2.4) bites and a hits at the moment, especially with older siblings, with whom he gets frustrated. If it's low level hitting, i.e. just tapping us rather than actually hurting, then I try to ignore him. If he tries to bite me, I move quickly away and then try to distract him. I don't know if I'm doing the right things.

I would be upset if my dd was getting hit three times per visit! (don't agree with telling victim to hit back though) it's tricky that it is such a long drive for you otherwise my response would be to give a warning after she does it once, and if she does it again to follow through and take her home. I think they are old enough to begin to learn that hitting isn't acceptable, and how you are responding currently doesn't seem to be working though it does seem like a sensible response IYKWIM? Good luck OP, I can understand how difficult it must be for you.

My DS went through a hitting and a biting phase - it felt longer than it was but it is just a phase and they do come out of it. it is your job to helicopter your child - is your partner around to share the load? Does she respond better to one parent than another? Be firm and consistent. I found that removing a favourite toy or the object of the behaviour worked - if they were hitting out over a toy - remove said toy.

It is also a way that they learn about social boundaries and appropriate behaviour. The other child as suggested before should be told to tell your DD - no do not hit me. I reinforced this by using th sign for stop - hand out in front of you palm up facing them.
My DS does still hit occasionally but he knows now that he will have a toy removed - this works well now but when he was 2 it did take working on. Sometimes distractions worked too - pointing out something different to him swayed him off course. It is hard hovering over them but it does end. Chin up - avoid family gatherings until it ends.

I think it's just your db and dm's way of telling you they've had enough of dn being hit and asking you to be more proactive.

Good post mrspepperpotty. I also had one who would get hit and one who was a hitter.

This isn't at a toddler group where, naturally, you'd be responsible, solely, for helicoptering. This is a family. Why can't your mum at least, do a bit for you? I've been through the constantly vigilant stage and it's exhausting. I think you're doing the right thing. As ds got more language his hitting and biting subsided. I never ignored it, but a juicy overreaction can be counter productive too. And I am constantly frustrated at how a physical response like hitting or biting trumps all other antisocial behaviour to the point where really irritating and unkind behaviour goes unchallenged. And believe me, I've observed so much of it with ds. It will pass but I feel your pain.

So many great messages, thanks to everyone for your input.
Ill reply again after Rereading all these responses in the morning.
Interestingly last night dd tried to hit another toddler. She barely made contact and he wasnt bothered by it, but I told her a firm NO and sat her next to me in another room for time out as one poster suggested (sorry I forget who). She kept trying to get back down and for 2 mins I said no hitting and sat her down again next to me. I completely ignored her other than that and just stared straight ahead. It was really interesting in that she kept trying to feel my face, looking at me inquisitively. She clearly noticed that she was being ignored and did not like it. i wonder when ive put her in time out before and Ive walked awAy from her (in order to withdraw attention) that she simply hasnt noticed that withdrawal.
im also planning on working on simple emotions and looking at different faces. On this note, for a while now, when we draw together she asks me to draw a face (amongst other things) and I always ask do you want me to make a happy face or a sad face. She always asks for a sad face and gets excited by that. Im wondering if this is linked somehow. That somehow sadness is entertaining. But maybe Im just reading too much into it.

Ok, I finally have 5mins to respond!
Following your suggestions and a phonecall with db these are the things i have decided on:
Lots more modelling of good play using dolls etc and pointing out good play in other children.
Cut down on words and just use dont hit.
Always warn of consequences of hitting before we see them.
If theres a second attempt at hitting we are going to go home if possible ( sonetimes we are all at mums, 3 hours away). If we cant go home, she will sit with me for a much longer time and told she is not allowed to play now. If that gets too stressful with tantrums my back up will be to go for a walk and when we come back to start it as a new visit.
teach more about emotions.
Ive asked my db if they can only play in the room where the adults are to make it less exhausting for me. He has agreed but I wonder whether this will actually happen. His children dont really listen to rules imo, and there doesnt seem to be a consequence.
Ive found a book called hands are not for hitting which Ill order.

Im worried that my close supervision and time outs for dd will make her look like shes the naughty one whereas my dn of course will sometimes be unpleasant and I dont think her behaviour will be picked up. I will say to DN please dont snatch or whatever and just hope her parents discipline her too.
I dont know theres much else I can do about that.

Ill update the thread in case anyone else is interested and let you know whats working/not working.

Fabulous help from everyone, thanks

Hope it works well OP. At least your mum and brother can't say you aren't trying!!

"Im worried that my close supervision and time outs for dd will make her look like shes the naughty one"

As regards the hitting, she is. But you are being seen to be doing something about it. If she is being provoked then the close supervision will show that up and you can argue her corner for her while still stopping the hitting.

"whereas my dn of course will sometimes be unpleasant and I dont think her behaviour will be picked up."

As before - it will be picked up by your close supervision.

" I will say to DN please dont snatch or whatever and just hope her parents discipline her too."

At least you can intervene on your dds behalf and if it gets too much then tell your db about the difficulty his dd is causing yours.

I don't use time out. You need to show them an alternative way of dealing with their frustration - teaching them to bottle it up might not seem harmful over a small thing like this, but they don't have a sense of perspective when they are little, so the seriousness of an incident is almost random - you know how toddlers get upset about seemingly innocuous things and then don't seem to notice others which you would imagine might be more serious.

We used to grab DS's arm before he made contact if possible while saying "NO" and then move him to some soft item of furniture, like a chair, or bed and tell him "You can hit this. We do not hit people. I know you are cross, but you must not hit people." It seemed to work for him. Now he's bigger we help him find other, less crude methods for calming down (and a form of time out is one) but this is the best for under-3s I think.

Plus, might not be related/helpful, but I find turn-taking much easier for little ones to understand rather than talking about "sharing nicely" which is a bit abstract, as sharing covers many different skills, some of which are out of the remit of their understanding.

Bertie - i see what youre saying with the need to get that anger out, but most times dd hits its actually an energetic swipe and as soon as the toy has been moved or the other person has go out of her personal space or whatever, the aggression changes to intense concentration ( on the object) or tears. But ill keep your tactic in mind.
Leonie-thanks, i feel a bit reassured by that. Maybe sad faces are just more interesting!?
Yuuule -im hoping a series of intense supervisions for a while really show up what provokes her. Out of 10 or 12 tots, there are 3 children which seem to be a little targeted (2 of whom are a year or even two years older). Information is power after all!

In that situation, with overenthusiasm, I'd still be trying to encourage the right behaviour rather than punishing the wrong, but we all have our own methods :) As long as you're being consistent she will get there.