falling out over toddler behaviour. AIBU and WWYD?

[Swimminglikeaduck]

I seem to have fallen out with my brother and Mother. But first, some facts.

I have a 2.2 year old dd. She sometimes hits other pre-schoolers when arguing over possession of toys and a couple of times she his swiped/hit another toddler for seemingly no reason at all. Ive dealt with all of these in the same way, namely:
Told her "we don't hit in this family" in a firm voice at eye level, then quickly gave immediate concern and attention to the victim, then picked up my dd and put her in time out, withdrawn any further attention from her for two minutes, then gone back to speak to her and bring her back to play.

This hitting phase seems to have started about two or three months ago, and although she chatters about time out and the no hitting rule, she still hits out.

Yesterday my dd goes in my dbros house and excitedly finds my dn(3.1) and her toys as im greeting my db and dsil.

Within a minute of being in the house dd finds a toy that she also owns at her own house (small piece of plastic jewelry nanny has bought both of them). She fondles it, dn tries to take it off dd, dd hits out at dn with plastic jewelry. She hits dn in the face (no marks) it probably shocked her more than anything, but may have hurt a little too. I feel this is pretty much usual toddler behaviour.

Dn cries. I try to give dn more attention than dd whilst trying to discipline dd too. Dn runs to her daddy (my brother), who then says this (in front of 3 year old dn):

do you mind if I tell my dd to hit your dd when she does that?
I splutter well, i cant tell you how to parent your child, but I dont think you should do that. he sees that Im angry and shocked that he would suggest his three year old hit my two two year old.

he responds with its just that my dd is always getting hit by your dd

I apologise and say Im doing my best to sort it out. I then totally helicopter my dd and his dd (and another 3children)for the rest of he visit so I can prevent any further upset. Fot the whole visit he stays in his arm chair and ignores the two toddlers and gets on with adult conversation.

My mum overhears all this and takes me aside and says "well, you wouldnt like your dd getting hit, he just thinks if the 3yr old retaliates, then the 2yr old will stop doing it. Basically, learn her lesson.

So now I get angry at mum, who never agrees with me and always tries to sit on the fence.

My dd is 2. She is learning with my help to control her impulses.

If he, or dsil, were to get on the floor with the children and help me stop dd in her tracks and help protect dn, then there would be fewer instances (there seems to be one or two or even three of these hitting issues each visit depending on how easily I can helicopter them)

If dn were to get annoyed with my dd and strike back, i would still maintain the no hitting rule and time out, and would hope that dn in the spirit of fairness would get a timeout with a gentler telling off(recognising that she was provoked). But I object to anyone being told to hit my dd.

I think we are basically clashing over parenting styles. His three children seem to be shouted at or sent to their room when being disciplined. Although I love his children dearly, I think they are often badly behaved, dont listen to their parents etc.
I am trying to deal with this hitting from my own dd in a calm and predictable manner. I realise my dn is upset when dd hits her, but actually they are great friends too, and she gets over it pretty quickly.

Could you wise people help me deal with this.

Should I be reacting to this hitting differently?

Should I avoid any meet ups for a while until dd has learnt to control herself better?

How can I stop getting irritated at my mum for always always seeing the other persons point of view? (i have apologised to her my my angry outburst and I know she was just trying to be fair to her own two children). I would love for her, just once, to say "in this instance I think you/your brotherr is right"

AIBU in thinking that my db and dsil should help with the helicoptering?

And finally, Im sorry if this was a boring read but I really am quite upset by it.

I do sympathise with you OP as your DD is very little but as the mum of another DD who was always the one being hit by others I can only say that your BIL must have been pretty fed up to broach it with you. I don't agree with the hitting back thing either though. Kids do go through these phases, it probably wont last but in the meantime I would keep an even closer eye on her. You don't sound like you are in denial about her behaviour at all though. Hope you can sort it out with your family.

YANBU and I think it is both your responsibility and your dbs responsibility to keep play safe.

My DN was a hitter and biter and just very very agressive, my dd would get constantly hit bit and ragdolled around if both my sister and I where not vigilant.

It is up to you to discipline your child and him to sooth his child. to cut down on the drama we had a rule that the children played in the same room as the adults so they can be supervised.

either one could deesculate a situation that may have progressed into hitting from my dn. but ultimatly my sis would discipline him and I would sooth her, I would not expect her to make a fuss of dd whilst attempting to discipline a 2 or 3 year old it would just be too caotic.

I think your db is a bit unympathetic to what is happening here and think your guilt is taking over, just appologise when it happens and play it down if I where you but do nit fall out.

Also I would not just grab the dd into time out, It is far better to do the no hitting etc, if you do that again it will be time out and then follow through it seems the way its being handled just now is very caotic which is understandable but just stop take a breather and not get so upset, your dd is a normal little girl.

My little girl went through this stage at about the same age and then one day it just stopped. She plays nicely now. It will pass! Maybe you should just punch your brother ;)

also just to add when supervision was upped with my dd and dn it became apparent that my dd knew very well how to press his buttons in a very sweet and sly manner.

Oh yes agree as well cut down the words you use. You can be short and sharp without shouting and a simple "don't hit" it is far more effective than using too many words.

This is really helpful. I have to get ready to go out (hopefully dd will be good tonight and enjoy a sleep over at our friends house with no hitting). But Ill be back to re read these all again, so I can draw up a tighter plan.

I think yabu, My dd was in a similar situation to your dn, she was constantly being hit by her cousin who was a boy of the same age, tbh my dsis telling him 'oh darling we don't do that' was having no effect.

My dd had a fall at nursery and her front tooth was knocked out, two days after this incident her darling cousin punched her straight in the mouth, I didn't stop and ask my dsis if she minded me telling my dc to hit back, I immediately told my dc to hit back and also told her that if she didn't hit dc back she would be put on time out. He never hit her again....

Your child needs to learn that it is not ok to hit other children and your method is clearly not working...

I think you need to make this very simple for your child, I'm sure she now understands it is wrong behaviour, so you don't need to explain and discuss with her. When I watch other parents explaining to young children the error of their ways you can see a glazed expression on the child's face, their attention span isn't that long!

I would say "no!" in a loud firm voice and sit the child next to me. I would then carry on with my conversation and ignore them. Give them no attention, if they get up, just sit them down again. I think withdrawing your attention is a powerful consequence, they don't like it. When you decide they can rejoin the play, maybe two mins for a two year old. Say to them "you may go and play now but if you hit/bite etc you will be sitting back here again" You need to stay in the room where they are playing all the time.

Rosmary one short of a picnic and subnormal inteligance levels? Nice way to describe children, you sound lovely

Moomin - I thought that was how you were describing Rosemary

Maria Montessori methods were designed to support sub-normal intelligence levels that were not catered for in the Italian system of education at the time.

And are you seriously saying that families that apply to go on TV to demonstrate how out of contol their families are - only to have the miracle of Jo Frost set them on the path to happy parenting - are not one short of a pic-nic ?????

oh yeah sub-normal levels of intelligence, is that on the EYFS profile?

If you mean the family's, I don't know, Id have to be seriously at the end of my teather to go on any sort of program with my children, but your post sounds like that's how you are describing the children, not the parent.

2 year olds are very hard to reason with, taking them out of the situation for a few minutes can help to calm them and the situation down, if nothing else

Gapants - sub-normal intelligence is the term used by Maria Montessori in her orignal (translated) writting, obviously pre-dates EYFS by 50 plus years thus no connection.

Yes I am describing the children, though there may well be inheritance at play to.

Aubina makes a good point. I can now say to my 7yo DS calmly, come and sit here, and he will. He knows it's because he's getting agitated and either rough or about to get rough and impulsive and often I need not say anything to him.

I actually had a big fall out with my closest friend over a 'do it back' situation. Her DD was spitting at DS - in a way she knew was not nice but she's clever enough to do it in a way she looks like she means to have fun. My DS kept asking her to stop and my friends willy nilly 'stop please babe, come here please darling did nothing'. I waited and when my DS came to me upset suggested then he played the game and did it back. Her DD went totally mad - and I mean melodramatic overreaction considering she had/was doing the same to my DS. My friend tried to argue she had been playing, my DS did it nasily, spat when her DD wasn't, went closer to her face than she did his.

I simply said - if she didn't want him to play the game she shouldn't have started it. He did it back because she wouldn't stop and her DD needed to learn to treat others how she wants to be treated. She was 'livid' apparently with me for not telling DS off I simply stood firm and said I would not punish DS for something another child was doing, which they knew was upsetting another child and that if she had told her DD off and then DS said it I would have given him the same consequence. Oh and apparently I was evil because I gave her DD a look as she was doing it to DS - and the look really scared her. proud that I've perfected the look emotion! Luckily she had the good grace to realise she should have stopped her DD before it got so far. Her DD still hurts others but friend is beginning to act more now. It has worked though as when DS does something (he's an impulsive grabber, not a hitter/hurter) I simply say when her DD's ask why I don't tell him off that they all do it and will all get the same consequence when together - ie I won't tell him off when they get away with it. Luckily it's forced my friends hand to do something about it.

OP, you are dealing with your DD. Just remember (as festi said above) your DN probably knows which buttons to press to wind up your DD. Make sure your DD isn't being victimised for being 2yo and going through a phase.

rosemary thank you for clarifying, but I have read M Montessorri's book and I did not think that her methods were for "sub-normal" levels of intelligence. They were in the first instance created to provide inclusive education to under privileged children in Rome.

However I feel that you using such a term here is not useful and not a way in which most people, especially educational professionals, would refer to children.

I think tigers idea has to be the best, teaching them about emotions and how hitting will make others sad etc I'm sure there are probably childrens books to help with this.

My eldest was a biter, which was awful, biting usually hurts, leaves marks and sometimes even draws blood

It wasn't untill he met another biter and I put him in the bath and discovered bites all over his body, and when I asked him what had happened he said childrs name had kissed him with his teeth, that I realised he didn't realy understand what biting was, and I had to explain that you don't kiss with your teeth. He was 21 months old at the time and never bit again

Then don't Gapants, use whatever descriptive terms you like, all amounts to the same thing, bright children learn faster than dimmer ones.

OP's child sounds quite bright to me, has learnt rapidly to copy being hit in one setting by hitting in another, and also learnt that time out for her is pretty much a non-consequnce and thus can be ignored.

Don't think that's true, my 2nd child took ages at that age to learn anything, he's 8 now and working at a higher level than the rest of his class

I certainly wouldn't have expected him to be as bright as he is now at the age of 2, he couldn't even talk at that age

Ummm - a secretly intelligent one I'd say - everything going in and totally with it just not showing it till good and ready.

Unlike my middle child who is, no matter how un-pc it is to say it, most definately one short of a pic-nic, nothing but nothing goes in without incredible amounts of effort, even less is retained and though in many ways he is lovely, he is by far and away our slowest learner of both basic life skills and anything academic.

Am only going to respond to the OP's main point - having a hitter is horrible. Ds is 5 and has never been one to hit, he was always the one to be hit and because he was/is big people thought that was ok - it isn't. Like others have said you need to helicopter her ALL the time and remove attention when she misbehaves, no long winded explanations just 'no' and ignore. Dd is only 15 moinths but has always been much more...erm....determined.... Than her brother and hits and pushes and has just started biting - I hate it but its not their fault. (Dd used to growl at ds and scratch him when teeny and breastfeeding).

It does need nipped in the bud though, there's a wee boy with ds at school and he hits, kicks, spits, punches all because he's never been disciplined.

One more thing I will say is acknowledge how awful you think it is to other people. Let them know you are sorry even if your dd isnt

(Rosemary - I find it so so so sad that you'd describe your own (or anyones) child in that way)

How would you guys describe such a child then ?