falling out over toddler behaviour. AIBU and WWYD?

[Swimminglikeaduck]

I seem to have fallen out with my brother and Mother. But first, some facts.

I have a 2.2 year old dd. She sometimes hits other pre-schoolers when arguing over possession of toys and a couple of times she his swiped/hit another toddler for seemingly no reason at all. Ive dealt with all of these in the same way, namely:
Told her "we don't hit in this family" in a firm voice at eye level, then quickly gave immediate concern and attention to the victim, then picked up my dd and put her in time out, withdrawn any further attention from her for two minutes, then gone back to speak to her and bring her back to play.

This hitting phase seems to have started about two or three months ago, and although she chatters about time out and the no hitting rule, she still hits out.

Yesterday my dd goes in my dbros house and excitedly finds my dn(3.1) and her toys as im greeting my db and dsil.

Within a minute of being in the house dd finds a toy that she also owns at her own house (small piece of plastic jewelry nanny has bought both of them). She fondles it, dn tries to take it off dd, dd hits out at dn with plastic jewelry. She hits dn in the face (no marks) it probably shocked her more than anything, but may have hurt a little too. I feel this is pretty much usual toddler behaviour.

Dn cries. I try to give dn more attention than dd whilst trying to discipline dd too. Dn runs to her daddy (my brother), who then says this (in front of 3 year old dn):

do you mind if I tell my dd to hit your dd when she does that?
I splutter well, i cant tell you how to parent your child, but I dont think you should do that. he sees that Im angry and shocked that he would suggest his three year old hit my two two year old.

he responds with its just that my dd is always getting hit by your dd

I apologise and say Im doing my best to sort it out. I then totally helicopter my dd and his dd (and another 3children)for the rest of he visit so I can prevent any further upset. Fot the whole visit he stays in his arm chair and ignores the two toddlers and gets on with adult conversation.

My mum overhears all this and takes me aside and says "well, you wouldnt like your dd getting hit, he just thinks if the 3yr old retaliates, then the 2yr old will stop doing it. Basically, learn her lesson.

So now I get angry at mum, who never agrees with me and always tries to sit on the fence.

My dd is 2. She is learning with my help to control her impulses.

If he, or dsil, were to get on the floor with the children and help me stop dd in her tracks and help protect dn, then there would be fewer instances (there seems to be one or two or even three of these hitting issues each visit depending on how easily I can helicopter them)

If dn were to get annoyed with my dd and strike back, i would still maintain the no hitting rule and time out, and would hope that dn in the spirit of fairness would get a timeout with a gentler telling off(recognising that she was provoked). But I object to anyone being told to hit my dd.

I think we are basically clashing over parenting styles. His three children seem to be shouted at or sent to their room when being disciplined. Although I love his children dearly, I think they are often badly behaved, dont listen to their parents etc.
I am trying to deal with this hitting from my own dd in a calm and predictable manner. I realise my dn is upset when dd hits her, but actually they are great friends too, and she gets over it pretty quickly.

Could you wise people help me deal with this.

Should I be reacting to this hitting differently?

Should I avoid any meet ups for a while until dd has learnt to control herself better?

How can I stop getting irritated at my mum for always always seeing the other persons point of view? (i have apologised to her my my angry outburst and I know she was just trying to be fair to her own two children). I would love for her, just once, to say "in this instance I think you/your brotherr is right"

AIBU in thinking that my db and dsil should help with the helicoptering?

And finally, Im sorry if this was a boring read but I really am quite upset by it.

What MrsCampbellBlack said.

Ok, from the responses so far, I see that IABU to be annoyed that Im the only one helicoptering. thanks for that. I will just accept that now.
Squeakytoy - my dd has been hit before quite a few times at toddler groups. She gets upset obviously, but doesnt see to extrapolate that therefore others get upset when she does it. I am thinking that this is just basically a maturity issue. but maybe Im wrong?
Those thinking Im not parenting effectively -what else should I do? Its a one hour drive to his house and we'd only just arrived, but should I have warned dd in advance and left as soon as she hit? Wouldnt this just have been water off a ducks back to her though and spoilt what would and should have been an enjoyable family meet up?

Of course not squeaky and thats why the OP needs to helicopter but it is pretty normal behaviour for toddlers and the OP is dealing with it.

What would you advocate the OP does to her just 2 year old?

I would think you could try giving your DD a shock in the form of a short but loud telling off rather than a firm voiced "we don't hit" which obviously isn't working.

I would be removing the child from toys and making them sit down and sit still. A child of over 2 is old enough to understand that you do not hit others, especially not in the face.

Hi there
As has been suggested, we're going to move this out of AIBU
thanks
M Towers

No, sorry, my son is 2 and if he hits someone, which he does rarely, he isn't nicely spoken to and told to stop. He's disciplined. He's put in time out and, if necessary, spoken to in a loud tone, just below yelling.

It's not okay to hit. Ever. I don't care how old you are or how old the other person is.

op My DS was just the same at just about the same age too, and it was hell. I can only echo what MrsCAmpbellblack has said. You are dealing with it well, except I would add that as well as being with your DD modelling good play and "helicoptering" you may want to consider if such social situations are worth the stress. My DS and I would attend some things and not others as they were just too stressful and cause upset. Or attend but only stay for a short time.

2 years olds just don't have the capacity to see the long term consequences of their actions.

But she's doing time out.

And I wouldn't shout either - a low voice is better in my opinion (and super nannys0

It will stop though this phase and I think most people are pretty tolerant of a 2 year old hitting providing its addressed its when its older children and the parents do nothing that there's trouble.

squeaky the Op has be doing pretty much exactly what you have suggested.

Ah - so your little one has been hit at playgroup - OK I would guess she is now copying that reaction.

One thing to do here is to talk her through situations like that on the way home afterwards - but at the time of her being hit you do need to go a bit well mental to be honest, "OH my goodness NO you do not hit my daughter" "That is NOT acceptable and your mum will take you out of play group RIGHT NOW" - whilst marching hitter off to her mum, then go on and on to your child about bad behaviour, how x wont be allowed to playgroup next time etc etc, basically make your child realise it is a really big deal that adults do not accept, use other childrens' poor behaviour to educate your own child.
You may occasionally lose a few mummy friends (most will get what your doing) but to be honest your currently at risk of falling out with yout own family which is much more important.

Would also guess from your post that your not normally a shouty person, do think you need to stretch the shouty muscles a bit - nothing woarse than a pilly-wally mummy trying to instil discipline.

And agree with Gapants that when my eldest went through this phase I kept visits short and also would take some of his own toys with us and when it did start to get difficult I would leave.

I don't agree with hitting back but have actually gently suggested to DS before I wouldn't punish him for firmly shoving pushing away a child who is always quite violent - and isn't disaplined properly IMO.

My DS is 7 though and this girl 6.

OP your DD is 2 - the stage where they can think more than they can communicate. Your DD's hitting out was impulse because she couldn't say to DN 'OI, don't snatch I was only playing with it'. I think your right to helecopter atm and it will hopefully teach your DD that she will get punished and caught when she's unkind. BUT I do think your Dbro needs someone to say to him that your DD's outburst on this occassion (and maybe others?) is an impulse reaction to DN and they both need to have things explained to them and the whole situation needs looking at and not 'just' your DD's behaviour.

I have been very guilty of getting into the situation where I would tell DS of for what he did - I'm big on consequences for actions - and because I'm an open parenter I will speak to DS whereever we are. I have not though until recently had the confidence to speak to anyone elses child about their behaviour. Therefore I have made it look like DS is the one always in the wrong allowing other parents to pretend their DC's are little angels.

When it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other then both children apologise and move on or both get a consequence. You DN is 3 afterall and therefore older and should know better

but shouting and yelling can excite a child rather than shock or frighten. Actually I would not want to shock or frighten my child at all, I think a low firm voice works far better.

Think of the teachers you had at school, those who kept their cool commanded much more respect and discipline than the screechers!

I would change the 'we dont hit in this family' to 'dont hit' said very firmly.

Cut the chaff

ok, lots of cross posting, I sometimes do loudly shout no hitting when the hit is more hit than swipe. I agree that time out doesnt appear to be working yet in that she doesnt seem bothered with it while its happening, but yet will talk about it later. So maybe shes just taking a while to register?
No, its not ok for my dn to be hit. I feel really bad each and everytime my dd has hit out.
But I dont believe we should teach retaliation, especially not at this age. What if the 17month old in the room got hit as a result of this 'teaching'. seems very wrong to me.
All toys were taken away during the time out.

I don't think hitting back ever realy works, as I already posted it just meant my 8 year old got kicked in the face

Have you taught her about simple emotions yet? Does she understand what happy / sad / upset / cross / excited etc are?

I taught these to DS (who is 2.1) around 6 months ago and he has been far better able to understand actions and consequences since then.

It means I can say don't do that because so-and-so will be upset and by being nice it makes people happy. When he really pushed the boundaries I would say, do you want mummy to be cross? The answer was always no and so I would say, well STOP then!

You can teach by pulling faces and getting her to copy them with what they mean and then as things crop up on a daily basis you can bring them in - like when she gives you a cuddle you can say with a huge grin on your face - cuddles make me really happy etc....

I'm convinced it has a lot to answer for. I've not had a tantrum from him since July which is around the same time I taught him to speak about how he and others are feeling.

And agree with birds

swimming I think you are doing fine. The most important thing when trying to change behaviours is being consistent.

My DS as I said went through this phase and was pretty terrible at the CMs for a short while, so we did a reward chart, he was 2.7 at this time, so a bit older. I think that coupled with the same reactions/discipline from me and the CM (who BTW has a no shout policy in her home ) helped him change his ways, that and him just growing up a bit.

Oh and your DBro is being daft to suggest instigating his DD hit back. If your DD gets a smack back from another child as a result of her initial hit, then that is that, but there is NO WAY I would ever encourage my kid to hit back.

Time Out has become really popular - many a thread showing that for many a child the method just doesn't work.

Do not be swayed by TV, it's all been very edited and the children on the shows are one short of a pic-nic, much like monessori methods - designed for sub-normal intelligence levels.

thanks mumsnet towers for moving this.
Lots of good advice here.
I will definately folllow dd like a hawk.
i will do a lot more warning. If you hit, you will not be allowed to play.
I will take a stronger stance if there is a second hit. Need to think more about this one, but perhaps we will simply leave. There would be mega tantrums if I tried to hold her on my lap while she watched others play.
I am not shouty usually, but I can project my voice and do a deep and cross voice. I can also shout If i need to. I used to be a teacher in another life.